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  • Market Garden

    Could operation Market Garden have been a success without “Monty”, I feel that Gen Gavin could have been a good key player had he been allowed. Could the operation have been a success with better planning?

    Did “Monty” succeed on the backs of everyone who fought around/with him?

    What was he really like?

  • #2
    Originally posted by penguinsfeet View Post
    Could operation Market Garden have been a success without “Monty”, I feel that Gen Gavin could have been a good key player had he been allowed. Could the operation have been a success with better planning?
    The main problem with Market Garden was the fact that it planned in a mere two weeks with the assumption that the enemy was a beaten force. It should also be noted that Monty played little part in its planning, the plan was mainly devised by Browning and his staff.

    Did “Monty” succeed on the backs of everyone who fought around/with him?
    Doesn't every general
    Monty played a very important part in the victory of the Western nations, his battles may not be to the liking of purists, seeing as they relied on firepower more than flashy tactics, but he was highly successful at a tolerable cost in men

    What was he really like?
    The problem with Monty was the fact as a person, he was a little sh*t, this often obscures the fact he was a very good general (if not as good as he thought he was ;) )

    Comment


    • #3
      The Canadians have a very different view of Monty. His failure ... and lack of leadership lead to the Battle of the Schelt. And as far as the Canadians are concerned, his failure as a leader was paramount. He blames the Canadians instead of himself.

      Be advised. I am Canadian.

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      • #4
        One View I read on him was that he was a very good WW1 general.
        He carefully built up supplies, massed fires and ensured he had as huge a numbers advantage as possible and then slowly rolled forward. Rinse and repeat as many times as needed.

        In hindsight we could say that It was the very Un Montylike nature of Market Garden that doomed it.
        For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Be advised. I am Canadian.

          GASP!

          Sir, I am shocked!

          From a logistics point of view, the entire operation was unsustainable without Antwerp being open as a port.

          And from an operational point a view, it was putting your neck into a noose of your own making guaranteeing it would get chopped off.

          Resources would have been better spent with an economy force in the north and an opening up of Antwerp under Montgomery and continued pressure through the center by Bradley with support coming up from the South by Patch.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
            GASP!

            Sir, I am shocked!

            From a logistics point of view, the entire operation was unsustainable without Antwerp being open as a port.

            And from an operational point a view, it was putting your neck into a noose of your own making guaranteeing it would get chopped off.

            Resources would have been better spent with an economy force in the north and an opening up of Antwerp under Montgomery and continued pressure through the center by Bradley with support coming up from the South by Patch.
            So why did Eisenhower go along with it, as far as I have read Ike was badgered into it by Monty, or was there more to it than that?

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            • #7
              Eisenhower believed in a broad front strategy...and he believed Montgomery when when Montgomery told him that 21 AG could do this as well as clear out the Scheldt to relieve the supply issues.

              Most everyone called it wrong....and too many people listened to Brereton and Browning.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by penguinsfeet View Post
                So why did Eisenhower go along with it,
                He liked the plan

                as far as I have read Ike was badgered into it by Monty, or was there more to it than that?
                It was a way of continuing the advance using forces which were sitting in England without putting too much extra strain on the logistical system.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  The Canadians have a very different view of Monty. His failure ... and lack of leadership lead to the Battle of the Schelt. And as far as the Canadians are concerned, his failure as a leader was paramount. He blames the Canadians instead of himself.
                  Not his best moment, but to be fair Ike didn't realise the importance of the Schelt either

                  Be advised. I am Canadian.
                  The flag on your post gave that one away

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by redco View Post
                    Not his best moment, but to be fair Ike didn't realise the importance of the Schelt either
                    Ike didn't blamed Monty. Monty blamed the Canadians for not clearing out the Schelt in time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OoE Reply

                      "Monty blamed the Canadians for not clearing out the Schelt in time."

                      He should have been the last complaining about lacking a "quick" in the step.
                      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                        "Monty blamed the Canadians for not clearing out the Schelt in time."

                        He should have been the last complaining about lacking a "quick" in the step.
                        The Eight Army after the 2nd Battle Of El Alamein advanced 780 miles in twenty days, if you can find an another army in WW2 that advanced as fast as that for a similar distance, please tell ;)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by redco View Post
                          The Eight Army after the 2nd Battle Of El Alamein advanced 780 miles in twenty days, if you can find an another army in WW2 that advanced as fast as that for a similar distance, please tell ;)
                          Alemain ended on 5 NOV 42. PAA pulled into the Mareth Line in late JAN 43.

                          How does that equate to 2 weeks?
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Alemain ended on 5 NOV 42. PAA pulled into the Mareth Line in late JAN 43.
                            How does that equate to 2 weeks?
                            The Mareth line is around 1,400 miles west of El Alamein.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Reading "von Luck's" Panzer Commander, it would appear that the Germans had more to do with their own defeat that "we" did, no doubt it was a bitter fight none the less.

                              My Father was in Palesetine early on in WW2, he was a driver and was tasked with guarding POW's somewhere in the dessert!!!! (<ahem> the desert as well)
                              Last edited by penguinsfeet; 02 Apr 10,, 15:38. Reason: Oh!!!! no reason!!

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