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  • #31
    The way I understand it:

    the Topic is/was Market Garden and Monty's role in it. The discussion about Monty then involes his actions in North Afrika, which involve Rommel and the PGA/PAA/DIPA/HGA, who he would face again in Normandy

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    • #32
      Monty was George MacLellan reincarnated. Market Garden was a bold plan hampered by poor planning and execution on the part of most of the Brit commanders involved.

      -dale

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      • #33
        Originally posted by redco View Post
        The Eight Army after the 2nd Battle Of El Alamein advanced 780 miles in twenty days, if you can find an another army in WW2 that advanced as fast as that for a similar distance, please tell ;)
        Soviet forces during Manchurian campaign in august 1945? (11 days, not sure about the distance though)

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
          Yes it was impressive, though it should be noted that Monty as the Allied Ground Commander is entitled to a share of the credit

          Nope, Ike took command of all ground forces on 1 AUG 44 with Montgomery commanding 21st AG and Bradley the 12th AG.
          Odd ? The references I have ( Decision In Normandy, by Carlo d'Este, and Overlord by Max Hastings ) state that Ike didn't take direct control of the ground forces in Normandy until the 1st September 1944, with Monty remaining Allied Ground Commander until then.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by S-2 View Post
            "Well, when you have advanced around 1400 miles you do need time to sort out your logistics:)"

            Perhaps. The Germans certainly found his sense of tidiness advantageous.
            Rommel didn't, his track record against Monty was rather one-sided ;)
            "Any formation that didn't have wheeled transport was part of the 60% of Rommels army left behind at El Alamein."

            Not necessarily. German formations suffered that difficulty to a great extent in any case. I thought you'd know that. I might have been wrong.
            I don't understand what you are referring too, are you trying to claim the part of Rommel's army which managed to get away didn't have access to motor transport ????
            "Indeed, though leaving around 95% of your heavy equipment behind at El Alamein does help you go faster;)"

            95%? You're prepared to document that?
            Yes:)
            Alamein, by Stephen Bungay
            "The only time he tried it against Monty was at the Battle of Alam Halfa, it was such a failure, his own troops mockingly referred to the battle as the 'Six Day Race' as they spend this amount of time racing around the desert achieving nothing, and getting bombed and shelled for their troubles."

            Rommel's choices at Alam Halfa were limited. Of course you'd know that too. His supply lines long, time waning with additional British convoys enroute, and the advantage of ULTRA. That said, Montgomery's "victory" against inferior forces would typlify his conquests. As I recall, Michael Carver and others would note this battle as being the first of many incomplete victories by Montgomery whom failed to press his advantage and afforded the PAA to retire.
            Rommel whole plan relied on Monty falling for the old ruse of Rommel falling back, enticing the British armour into charging into his anti-tank gun screen. It didn't work ;)

            "So you are going to ignore his role in the planning and execution of the Normandy campaign then..."

            Only if you'd contend that it was Montgomery's intent to "write down" the German armor opposing 21st Army Group without achieving victory with each of his defeated offensives. That falls under "execution". Was Caen seized on the first day of his plan? EPSOM? Or the litany of subsequent offensives that eventually pushed back the German defenses without effecting any sundering of that wing as was Montgomery's intent.

            Repeatedly.
            I'm certain not going to contend something that's not true and you know it ;)
            So it seems you are going to give no credit for Monty's role in planning the landings and the successful campaign in Normandy.
            "Rather flippant remark, he was the most senior officer in Normandy, Ike and his staff stayed in England."

            Actually he wasn't. A.R. has noted the date command transitioned. You read his comments, didn't you? The senior command had already passed. Montgomery was responsible for 21st Army Group only. Thus no flippancy on my part.
            Monty remained as Allied Ground Commander until the 1st September

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
              What S2 and I were objecting to was the cannonization of Montgomery.


              .
              Stating that he was a sh*t as a person, and not as good as he thought he was...is canonizing him

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              • #37
                Originally posted by aktarian View Post
                Soviet forces during Manchurian campaign in august 1945? (11 days, not sure about the distance though)
                A possibility, does anyone have any figures ;)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by redco View Post
                  Stating that he was a sh*t as a person, and not as good as he thought he was...is canonizing him

                  There are a lot of previous posts postulating Monty as the second coming of Alexander the Great, Julius Caeser and Horatius at the Bridge

                  We may be a little spring loaded to question what soem people post...particularly when it appears to fly in the face of men loke OOE and his personal understanding of the Canadian Forces attitude about the gentleman.

                  You can find many posts by me through thes pages where I speak well of British and Commonwealth battlefield commanders and senior staff. Ramsey, Tedder and Mountbatten come to mind. And I consider Slim the finest Army comamnder of ANY army during the war.

                  Ike moved SHEAF HQ to France and told Monty he was taking over....which was the agreement all along.

                  Besides, by the time of the Breakout, 12th AG had taken command of all US forces in Normandy and was directing combat operations. Monty was commanding 21st AG only. Once 12 AG stood up Bradley stopped reacting to Monty and responded only to Ike.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by redco View Post
                    A possibility, does anyone have any figures ;)

                    The Trans Baikul Front covered 700 miles in 11 days.
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

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                    • #40
                      Another question, where was Patton during all of this? After Normandy and his decoy was no longer needed, where was he?
                      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                        Another question, where was Patton during all of this? After Normandy and his decoy was no longer needed, where was he?
                        When? During Market Garden? IIRC he was sitting at the gates of Metz, waiting for fuel

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                          Another question, where was Patton during all of this? After Normandy and his decoy was no longer needed, where was he?
                          His Third Army was running rampant throughout Northern France. He led the 3rd Army through the breach after COBRA and attacked west into Brittany, south, east and then also norht to cut off the German forces in Normandy.
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • #43
                            redco Reply

                            "Rommel didn't, his track record against Monty was rather one-sided;)"

                            So too the conditions of supply and combat. Montgomery did nothing overtly spectacular by achieving victory at El Alamein. He simply accomplished what should have been accomplished beforehand. Did PUGILIST later succeed?

                            "you trying to claim the part of Rommel's army which managed to get away didn't have access to motor transport ????"

                            Certainly not all it had prior to battle. Even you suggest as much by your 95% claim WRT heavy equipment.

                            "Yes:)
                            Alamein, by Stephen Bungay"


                            Does armor count in that 95% heavy figure? If so, can you explain how Jentz shows 264/239 German tanks total/operational prior to Oct. 23, 1942 and 64/53 on December 2, 1942 following their 700 mile retreat to Marsa el Brega? Those numbers far exceed 5% while staying fully engaged throughout the retreat yet subject to fuel and supply part issues as well.

                            If true-and there's no reason to be believe regimental status reports were falsified-a full month following El Alamein and 700 miles further west, German heavy forces still retained approx 23% of the heavy forces with which they entered battle in late October without the benefit of replenishment.

                            Rommel maintained a considerable force-in-being, defeated but undaunted and hardly destroyed. Montgomery accomplished at El Alamein the EXPECTED...finally. It was for that purpose he'd been placed in command. He achieved no Cannae, however, nor anything approximating such. Neither then nor in the long administrative road-march he subsequently effected across Libya.

                            Whoopee.;)

                            "Rommel whole plan relied on Monty falling for the old ruse of Rommel falling back, enticing the British armour into charging into his anti-tank gun screen. It didn't work ;)"

                            No. That was Rommel's fallback. "Failure", as you put it, simply meant that the British failed to bring the Germans to decisive battle. We'll never know if Montgomery could have done so better than heretofore against Rommel's AT screen. He didn't try thus forfeiting his opportunity to display superior tactical acumen where others had failed.

                            "So it seems you are going to give no credit for Monty's role in planning the landings and the successful campaign in Normandy."

                            He oversaw the creation of a functional plan that was possible to implement given the resources at his disposal.

                            As to the campaign itself, I'm underwhelmed by his operational performance at the head of 21st Army group. Faced with the inability to capture Caen on the first day, he had no viable answer. Offered a reprieve by the Germans at Villers-Bocage, neither Hind, Erskine, Bucknall, Dempsey, nor Montgomery seemed able to seize the opporturnity. Given the subsequent German reinforcement coupled to an allied lack of imagination invested to the forthcoming offensives, it would be their last opportunity to exploit a fluid battlefield to full advantage.:)

                            "Monty remained as Allied Ground Commander until the 1st September"

                            You are correct. Nominally so WRT form over function. 12th Army Group combat operations had already well taken a shape and command character distinct from Montgomery's command and control.

                            Further, Eisenhower was personally engaged with many aspects affecting troop dispositions and ground combat operations in northern France to include diminishing the importance of immediately seizing Breton ports and whether and how to seize Paris. To suggest otherwise disingenuously elevates Montgomery's actual stature when the SHAEF commander's hand was all over these decisions.

                            Supreme Allied Commander Europe-NATO/OTAN

                            "On August 9, 1944, General Eisenhower established his advance command post in France. Prior to that date he had visited the front from his headquarters in London and Portsmouth, Tactical Advance Headquarters. On 25 August General Eisenhower reported the destruction of German Forces in Northwestern France."

                            I'm underwhelmed by your defense of Montgomery. His battles were fought from N. Africa through Sicily, Italy, France, Holland, and Germany with every advantage. He was SUPPOSED to win. It's why he was placed in command of British forces by Churchill. In my view he did so in pedantic, perfunctory, and pedestrian fashion. When afforded the opportunity to decisively engage German forces in N. Africa, Villers-Bocage, Falaise, and Arnhem, he deferred or refused to assert his command influence and, IMV, extended the war by these failures.

                            His plans are characterized by minute detail and an absence of commanding at the decisive points of battle where he could reverse the caution displayed by his subordinates. In fact, too often his subordinates instead mimiced his own innate cautiousness:).

                            Thanks.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                            • #44
                              Commanders such as Gatehouse or Freyberg were as hesitant during Crusader as they were during Lightfoot. You can't blame that on Montgomery--he couldn't chop every head in the Eighth Army.

                              Montgomery's worst battle was Market Garden, which is the one time he didn't follow his usual methodical approach. If he had kept his battlefield and his logistics "tidy," we would have cleared the Scheldt estuary instead.

                              At Falaise, I'm afraid it was Canada that dropped the ball there. Even our own official historian says as much.

                              Montgomery's North African record has been attacked a lot by the Dorman-Smith circle, whose criticisms entered the mainstream historiography via Liddell-Hart. While D-S has views worthy of consideration, D-S' career was affected by ongoing political controversy in the British officer corps, owing to the Irish Question. Montgomery was an Anglo-Irish loyalist (although a moderate); D-S was an Irish nationalist who later changed his name to O'Gowan and eventually became an advisor to the IRA.
                              Last edited by cape_royds; 05 Apr 10,, 22:59.

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                              • #45
                                Bigross,

                                Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                                Another question, where was Patton during all of this? After Normandy and his decoy was no longer needed, where was he?
                                At the Normandy breakout Patton and his 3d Army was inserted to the west of VII Corps and began his blitz to the Seine. During Market-Garden Patton was engaged in a tank battle by the 5th Panzer Army in Lorraine.
                                Last edited by Triple C; 09 Apr 10,, 10:27.
                                All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                                -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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