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  • Armenian Genocide

    I don`t know whether or not this is the correct place for a thread on the Armenian Genocide but I find what Bernard Lewis has to say about it to be quite interesting.
    F
    rom Wikipedia

    Armenian massacres

    Bernard Lewis was ordered to pay one franc as damages by a French court in a civil proceeding for his statements on the Armenian Massacres of 1915 in a November 1993 Le Monde article. Lewis's position was that while mass murders did occur, he did not believe there was sufficient evidence to conclude it was government-sponsored, ordered or controlled and therefore did not constitute a genocide. The court stated that "by concealing elements contrary to his opinion, he neglected his duties of objectivity and prudence".[34]

    When Lewis received the prestigious National Humanities Medal from President George W. Bush in November 2006, the Armenian National Committee of America took strong objection. Executive Director Aram Hamparian released a statement of pointed disapproval:

    “ The President's decision to honor the work of a known genocide denier — an academic mercenary whose politically motivated efforts to cover up the truth run counter to the very principles this award was established to honor — represents a true betrayal of the public trust.[35] ”

    Lewis' views on the issue were criticized by human rights activists, historians and scholars, including Alain Finkielkraut, Yves Ternon, Richard G. Hovannisian, Albert Memmi, Pierre Vidal-Naquet,[36][37] Robert Melson,[38] David B. MacDonald,[39] Norman Finkelstein;[40] Stephen Zunes described him as a "notorious genocide-denier".[41] According to historian Yair Auron, "Lewis’ stature provided a lofty cover for the Turkish national agenda of obfuscating academic research on the Armenian Genocide".[42] Israel Charny wrote about Lewis' views that "the seemingly scholarly concern with putting the historical facts in the context of Armenians constituting a threat to the Turks as a rebellious force who together with the Russians threatened the Ottoman Empire, and the insistence that only a policy of deportations was executed, barely conceal the fact that the organized deportations constituted systematic mass murder".[43] Charny compares the "logical structures" employed by Lewis in his denial of the genocide to those employed by Ernst Nolte in his Holocaust negationism.[44]

    [edit] Lewis' response
    In response, Lewis argued that:

    “ There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempts to prevent it, which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very uncertain but a million may well be likely,[45] ...[and] the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government... there is no evidence for such a decision.[46] ”

    Lewis stated that he believed "to make [the Armenian Genocide], a parallel with the Holocaust in Germany" was "rather absurd."[45] In an interview with Ha'aretz he stated:

    “ The deniers of Holocaust have a purpose: to prolong Nazism and to return to Nazi legislation. Nobody wants the 'Young Turks' back, and nobody wants to have back the Ottoman Law. What do the Armenians want? The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against the Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand, they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute

  • #2
    we already had this topic and it is now locked.

    i am not sure that it is a good idea to start another one.
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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    • #3
      Turkish Opposition Proposes Deporting Illegal Armenians
      11:47 • 16.03.10

      As a sort of backlash from Sweden and US congressional panels passing resolutions recognizing the Armenian Genocide, Canan Arıtman, a deputy from Turkey’s largest opposition party, the Republican People’s Party, proposed deporting all Armenian citizens living in the country illegally.

      On the matter of these resolutions, Turkey’s parliament convened a closed-door session on March 15, attended by Turkey’s Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu.

      According to Turkish daily Radikal, Republican People’s Party and Nationalist Movement Party MPs proposed countering those resolutions quite radically, such as recalling the Armenia-Turkey Protocols from parliament and closing down the American Incirlik Air Base, a key military base for the US.

      In another move, Arıtman proposed that all Turkish national deputies who voted in favor of the Armenian Genocide resolution in the Swedish riksdag be deprived of Turkish citizenship, while the Swedish parliamentarians voting for the resolution be denied entry to Turkey.

      Davutoğlu, responding to opposition demands to recall the Protocols from parliament, said that those documents are tools to eliminating Turkey’s worldwide image of an irreconciliable state, and they will continue to remain in the parliament.

      Turkish Opposition Proposes Deporting Illegal Armenians - Tert.am - News

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      Davutoglu Speaks Out Against Deporting Armenians Living in Turkey Without Status
      15:01 • 16.03.10


      To deport citizens of Armenia living illegally in Turkey means to give a “winning card” to those countries who come out against Turkey, said Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs Ahmet Davutoglu during a closed-door meeting of the foreign affairs committee of Turkey’s Grand National Assembly, responding to opposition People’s Republican Party MP Canan Arıtman’s earlier statements which suggested deporting all Armenian citizens.

      “Such a step would become a winning card in the hands of those countries who are against us. In addition, all of the world’s countries’ papers will publish articles about deported Armenians. A nationalist image would form, [and] Turkey will be in a more difficult situation,” said Davutoglu.

      As for the signed protocols, he noted that Ankara does not intend to withdraw them from parliament, reports News.az.

      “Everything is good in its time. We should not make decisions that may further harm our interests. But we will protect our national interests more energetically and let everyone know about it. We will use these protocols as a tool,” said Davutoglu, according to Turkish news source Sabah.

      The foreign minister also spoke out against closing t he US military base in Incirlik, saying that such a step in today’s changed political landscape and state of affairs will have no effect whatsoever.

      Davutoglu Speaks Out Against Deporting Armenians Living in Turkey Without Status - Tert.am - News

      ------------------------------


      Eduard Sharmazanov told NEWS.am:
      Commenting on the Turkish Premier’s threats to expel Armenians from the country, he said that the more states recognize the Armenian Genocide the more significant the Armenian factor will be for Erdogan. “Erdogan spoke of 5,000 Armenians residing in Turkey, then about 70,000 an now the figure is 100,000. It is time for Ankara to understand that Yerevan is not to be talked to in terms of ultimatums. Ankara had better deal with the ratification of the protocols instead of making senseless statements,” he said.

      RPA urges Azerbaijani FM stop building castles in air | News from Armenia - NEWS.am
      Wolf Hunter

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      • #4
        “ There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempts to prevent it, which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very uncertain but a million may well be likely,[45] ...[and] the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government... there is no evidence for such a decision.[46] ”

        Sir, what is the link between what lewis said and what swedish parliament did? You may have foresight but it is hard to get it. Can you please explain it?

        130 swedish parliamentarians said "no" to so called aremenian genocide and 131 of them said "yes" to it. is 1 more swedish parliamentary vote make us understand the history? Would you understand that way if result was 131 no, 130 yes. Definition of genocide is obvious:
        "two elements of the crime of genocide:

        1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

        2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."" Turkey calls Armenian and international historians to understand events with scientific way. Isn't it better way to understand the turkish intent to destroy armenians if it exists. Who cares Swedish parliament for this issue? My guess most swedish parliaments can't find Armenia in Caucasus map?

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        • #5
          You are arguing on technicalities.

          There is no historical or factual doubt that millions of Armenians were indeed massacred by Turks. Refusal by Turkey to acknowledge this is only indicative of its complicity.
          "Who says organization, says oligarchy"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Big K View Post
            we already had this topic and it is now locked.

            i am not sure that it is a good idea to start another one.
            You guys should pay attention to Big K, he knows what he's talking about.
            Every time this topic has come up we've ended up with major flame wars and bannings.
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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