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Thread: Presidential Rankings of the United States - accurate?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    He also faced extreme extenuating and mitigating circumstances:

    1) Congress was not in session, and it wasn't possible to simply send emails out to their Blackberries telling them to get their a$$es on planes so they could convene the new Congress tomorrow in a special session. The exigency of the crisis demanded government action immediately.


    2) Congress after the fact validated the decisions that Lincoln took as if they were actions of their own.
    I was not tlaking about salvery but about the suspencion of habeus corpus and the jailing of Congressmen as well as the ceation of a state.

    3) The "by force" vs. "by consent" devolves to a philosophical discussion of whether a minority can ignore the decision of the majority when no rights violations are involved. While one can posit hypotheticals about Lincoln was going to do with regards to the question of slavery (although this requires ignoring the GOP plank, his consistent record of statements, and annoints him as a "king" since any actions WRT slavery required Congressional action), it was exact that - a "hypothetical" and therefore void of a "rights violation" that would justify minority disregard of the agreed to principle of majority rule.
    The fact remains that post civil war, any state action risks the imposistion of federal force in DC doesn't like it. For a long time we had been lucky and that power had mostly been used to end the tyranny of the states. Now however via Obama care and the War on Drugs we see federal might being used to force compliance with federal directives. This is behyond the pale, its one thing to restrict funds such as highway funds for drinking age increases and quite another to use the barrel of a gun or the threat of federal prison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I was not tlaking about salvery but about the suspencion of habeus corpus and the jailing of Congressmen as well as the ceation of a state.
    The jailing of Vallandigham was upheld by the SCOTUS, Presidential and the creation of West Virginia followed Constitutional procedure. As to the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, it was never ruled unconstitutional and there is a strong contextual argument that it is constitutional.


    Quote Originally Posted by zraver
    The fact remains that post civil war, any state action risks the imposistion of federal force in DC doesn't like it. For a long time we had been lucky and that power had mostly been used to end the tyranny of the states. Now however via Obama care and the War on Drugs we see federal might being used to force compliance with federal directives. This is behyond the pale, its one thing to restrict funds such as highway funds for drinking age increases and quite another to use the barrel of a gun or the threat of federal prison.
    The federal government did see an expansion in power during the ACW, but a lot of that power receded. I'd be weary of tracing a straight line from the Lincoln Administration to the Obama Administration and would offer that the rise of America's role in the world and the economic success of America has been much more responsible in shifting the role of the federal government.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    My tops(not in order);

    Washington
    Jefferson
    Coolidge
    Kennedy
    Nixon
    Reagan

    My worst;

    Lincoln
    Roosevelt(both of them)
    Wilson
    LBJ
    Ford
    Carter
    Obama
    I'm surprised to see Nixon, the ultimate imperialist President, in your tops list.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    he was more of a progressive, actually... he took on and broke monopolies/trusts that were actively subverting and remaking US law and politics. that's considerably harder than anything obama's done.
    Won't argue that! And Obama is aspiring to be who this week? Is it still Lincoln?



    he was a highly honorable man with some questionable policies, such as the Immigration Act of 1924. also can't forget the highly silly Kellogg-Briand Pact.
    Everyone has something. I recall the Johnson-reed act, but haven't read that much about it or what it was really for. I'll have to check up on the K-B Pact as well.

    Still yet, you have to admit he was a heckuva lot better than his recent predecessors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    I'm surprised to see Nixon, the ultimate imperialist President, in your tops list.
    Glad you caught that, but an Imperialist, how so?

    From Wiki
    The most immediate task facing President Nixon was a resolution of the Vietnam War. He initially escalated the conflict, overseeing incursions into neighboring countries, though American military personnel were gradually withdrawn and he successfully negotiated a ceasefire with North Vietnam in 1973, effectively ending American involvement in the war. His foreign policy initiatives were largely successful: his groundbreaking visit to the People's Republic of China in 1972 opened diplomatic relations between the two nations, and he initiated détente and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Soviet Union. On the domestic front, he implemented the concept of New Federalism, transferring power from the federal government to the states; new economic policies which called for wage and price control and the abolition of the gold standard; sweeping environmental reforms, including the Clean Air Act and creation of the EPA; the launch of the War on Cancer and War on Drugs; reforms empowering women, including Title IX; and the desegregation of schools in the deep South. He was reelected by a landslide in 1972. He continued many reforms in his second term, though the nation was afflicted with an energy crisis. In the face of likely impeachment for his role in the Watergate scandal,[1] Nixon resigned on August 9, 1974. He was later pardoned by his successor, Gerald Ford, for any federal crimes he may have committed while in office.

    In his retirement, Nixon became a prolific author and undertook many foreign trips. His work as an elder statesman helped to rehabilitate his public image. He suffered a debilitating stroke on April 18, 1994, and died four days later at the age of 81.
    Only Nixon can go to China!!!! He had guts and he was a veteran, I liked him!!

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    At least I can say Carter is not the 2nd worst president in history any longer. Obama has passed him and now marching toward the epic failure of LBJ.
    Shall i take that as your prediction that Obama will not get a second term ?

    I've heard comments on similar lines that Afghanistan might sink him.

    But you know what, i think the acid test is if ppl ask themselves whether they are better off today than they were 4 yrs back. Regardless of foreign policy, this always seemed like the key question.

  7. #37
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    he took on and broke monopolies/trusts that were actively subverting and remaking US law and politics. that's considerably harder than anything obama's done.
    Yeah, this is when all the anti-trust legislation got enacted, very important.

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    gunnut,

    now marching toward the epic failure of LBJ.
    as a conservative-libertarian you should actually LIKE LBJ's administration ; it's not a far stretch to say that without the Vietnam War and the way it polluted people's trust in government, the reagan revolution wouldn't have been possible.

    ie people forget how MUCH the "average american citizen" liked big government (i mean "big government", not clintonian "efficient government") back in the day. people swooned over the eggheads in Kennedy's cabinet. LBJ crushed Goldwater like a lousy tin can and had 80% approval ratings in '64-'65 during his announcement of the Great Society.

    to give you some perspective, olympia snowe is probably considerably to the right of goldwater, and goldwater was viewed as an extremist right-wing nut by 60+% of the american populace back then.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    The jailing of Vallandigham was upheld by the SCOTUS,
    SCOTUS punted, a similar act today would be thrown out.

    Presidential and the creation of West Virginia followed Constitutional procedure.
    No it didn't, to become a state an area must first have spent time as a territory per the Northwest Ordnance. Plus the election was a fraud, the Voters of Virginia were not provided with polling stations, only those whose vote was wanted were allowed via acceess to polling stations, and finally a vote affectign the the entire state was not held state wide.


    As to the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, it was never ruled unconstitutional and there is a strong contextual argument that it is constitutional.
    I think that argument fails, Lincoln seems to have thought it better to ask forgiveness than permission.

    The federal government did see an expansion in power during the ACW, but a lot of that power receded. I'd be weary of tracing a straight line from the Lincoln Administration to the Obama Administration and would offer that the rise of America's role in the world and the economic success of America has been much more responsible in shifting the role of the federal government.
    Federal power never really receeded, there was perhaps 20 years after reconstruction and before the progressive movement where fedral power may have slipped back a bit.

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    zraver,

    Federal power never really receeded, there was perhaps 20 years after reconstruction and before the progressive movement where fedral power may have slipped back a bit.
    federal power dramatically receded after the civil war-- everything from the massive military demobilization to taxation. but it wasn't the progressive movement that kickstarted the increase in federal power; it was really the imperialist adventures of the late 1890s and the spanish-american war that got things going. the way it was set up, too, was different from the way federal power was exercised during the civil war-- a much more systematic, bureaucratic-centered approach.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    7th,

    Glad you caught that, but an Imperialist, how so?
    not foreign imperialism-- nixon was the biggest Imperial President, ie he believed in the primacy of Executive power. he illegally used the FBI and IRS to go after his political enemies, and used the CIA to spy on americans (Operation CHAOS). he tried to take over the legislative power of the purse.

    and that's all BEFORE watergate.

    i'd imagine for any libertarian he'd probably be the worst president ever.
    Last edited by astralis; 16 Sep 10, at 17:19.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  12. #42
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Shall i take that as your prediction that Obama will not get a second term ?
    I sure hope not. We can't afford to have a self-righteous socialist with an ego the size of Napoleon running this country for more than a year, let alone 8. Look how much damage he has done in just 1 year.

    Actually, to be fair to Obama, he inherited the democrat congress from Bush. The decline started after the socialist take over of 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I've heard comments on similar lines that Afghanistan might sink him.
    It might. At least that's one of the campaign promises he kept. He said we would disengage in Iraq and ramp up the Afghan war. Supposedly to crush the taliban. So far it looks like we're trying to build a western democracy in Afghanistan rather than crush the taliban or capture OBL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    But you know what, i think the acid test is if ppl ask themselves whether they are better off today than they were 4 yrs back. Regardless of foreign policy, this always seemed like the key question.
    I think we were better 4 years ago.

    Bush's failed policy was way better than any successful Obama policy.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  13. #43
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,

    as a conservative-libertarian you should actually LIKE LBJ's administration ; it's not a far stretch to say that without the Vietnam War and the way it polluted people's trust in government, the reagan revolution wouldn't have been possible.
    I agree up to a point. It's the same reason why I am glad that McCain is not the president right now. The democrats own the 3 houses and have no one else to blame. The people can see that. The people are annoyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    ie people forget how MUCH the "average american citizen" liked big government (i mean "big government", not clintonian "efficient government") back in the day. people swooned over the eggheads in Kennedy's cabinet. LBJ crushed Goldwater like a lousy tin can and had 80% approval ratings in '64-'65 during his announcement of the Great Society.
    People were stupid back then. WW2 gave them the illusion that a top-down command economy in war time could work in peace time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    to give you some perspective, olympia snowe is probably considerably to the right of goldwater, and goldwater was viewed as an extremist right-wing nut by 60+% of the american populace back then.
    Wait...Snowe to the RIGHT of Goldwater? Snowe is a fricken commie. Goldwater hated commies. If anything, people back then were way more conservative than today. Read JFK's inaugural speech and you think he's a staunch conservative by today's standards.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    gunnut,

    People were stupid back then. WW2 gave them the illusion that a top-down command economy in war time could work in peace time.
    no, it was the failure of private industry and banks in the Great Depression that prompted that feeling. people cried when FDR died, and it wasn't just because he was a good wartime leader.

    Wait...Snowe to the RIGHT of Goldwater? Snowe is a fricken commie. Goldwater hated commies. If anything, people back then were way more conservative than today. Read JFK's inaugural speech and you think he's a staunch conservative by today's standards.
    you're conflating a few different issues, social, defense, and economics. goldwater was more libertarian when it comes to social mores, was about the same as her economically, and was to snowe's right on defense (he was for using tactical nukes in vietnam). people were way more socially conservative in the past, but way more economically liberal (and i'd argue about the same defense-wise). that's why the US upper tax rate was 94% until the kennedy era and 70%+ until reagan.

    as he famously said to bob dole, "we're the new liberals of the republican party...can you imagine that?"
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  15. #45
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,

    no, it was the failure of private industry and banks in the Great Depression that prompted that feeling. people cried when FDR died, and it wasn't just because he was a good wartime leader.
    It should be the "perceived" failure of the private industry, just like today. Rahm Emanual famously said "never let a crisis go to waste." FDR did the same thing except he didn't advertise it.

    I have about as much respect for FDR as I have for CKS of China.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    you're conflating a few different issues, social, defense, and economics. goldwater was more libertarian when it comes to social mores, was about the same as her economically, and was to snowe's right on defense (he was for using tactical nukes in vietnam). people were way more socially conservative in the past, but way more economically liberal (and i'd argue about the same defense-wise). that's why the US upper tax rate was 94% until the kennedy era and 70%+ until reagan.
    Goldwater sounds like a guy I can get along with.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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