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Thread: Presidential Rankings of the United States - accurate?

  1. #16
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    freeloader,

    For me, I believe Ulysses S Grant is often ranked far worse than he really was. I understand this is about how they were as president and not their whole lives but as the man who finally stopped the great Robert E Lee and fought for the rights of blacks after the Civil War, he sure suffers in polls. Part of why he was viewed unfavorably back then was for trying to prosecute the KKK for hanging blacks. He should be viewed unfavorably for that action? Yes he had corruption galore in his "Executive Mansion" but I do not think it should drag him to the bottom 6-7 spots where some place him.
    most modern rankings no longer place him that low-- he's in the middle zone these days.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    zraver,

    i understand the first two, maybe even three...but why monroe and madison? all their greatest achievements were done before their presidencies. i'd say freeing millions of americans from being subject to murder, rape, beatings, and unpaid work trumps what they did.

    and in one swoop solving TWO problems that had bedeviled our founding fathers, ie the problems of secessionism and slavery.
    Madison was the principle author of the Constitution and won the Second War of American Independence. Victory or stalemate take your pick it ended the British threat to our country and to our expansion westward. Monroe followed this up be declaring that America was a power on par with Europe and would brook no more colonialism in the new world. Although he merely jumped ahead of where the British were already headed the Monroe Doctrine put us on the path to major power status.

    Lincoln did end the two vexing questions, but he did it by bald face constitutional violations. His actions during the war smacked of a king like disregard to the rule of law. he might well be considered the first imperial presidency. He also established the primacy of the federal government by force rather than by consent of the governed.

  3. #18
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    My tops(not in order);

    Washington
    Jefferson
    Coolidge
    Kennedy
    Nixon
    Reagan
    Ok you have Reagan in 6th place, but of the various polls in the wiki link, the best he got was 8th and that too only in the WSJ polls. Which is surprsing as i think he has to be in the top ten because he was instrumental in bankrupting the USSR in a high stakes game of poker. And as time goes on think his position will move towards the top five.

    But this is from a foreigners's perspective, my country would not liberalise until it went bankrupt in 1990, had the USSR endured longer things would still be in the dumps here. Tho Reagan must have done some things right to get two terms.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 10, at 10:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Station 22 View Post
    When you say Wilson, do you mean just him, or him and his wife?
    I never knew about his wife. Was she worse than Hillary or Michelle?

  5. #20
    Patron Zad Fnark's Avatar
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    What's the reasoning for TR's spot?

    Just wonderin'

    ZF-

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    My tops(not in order);

    Washington
    Jefferson
    Coolidge
    Kennedy
    Nixon
    Reagan
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Ok you have Reagan in 6th place, but......
    Notice the "(not in order)"...

    of the various polls in the wiki link, the best he got was 8th and that too only in the WSJ polls. Which is surprsing as i think he has to be in the top ten because he was instrumental in bankrupting the USSR in a high stakes game of poker. And as time goes on think his position will move towards the top five.
    Doesn't matter to me. This was an opinion poll basically and this is my opinion. I was only a kid when Nixon was in office, so he and the older ones I have to have only to respect from a historical POV. Reagan however, was my commander in chief when I served in the military. I have a special admiration for him regardless. As for his accomplishments, I feel they are unequaled so far in my lifetime. He brought down a huge communist regime and planted the seeds of freedom for millions of people. So was it worth it?

    But this is from a foreigners's perspective, my country would not liberalise until it went bankrupt in 1990, had the USSR endured longer things would still be in the dumps here. Tho Reagan must have done some things right to get two terms.
    So do you like your country better now or then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Lincoln did end the two vexing questions, but he did it by bald face constitutional violations. His actions during the war smacked of a king like disregard to the rule of law. he might well be considered the first imperial presidency. He also established the primacy of the federal government by force rather than by consent of the governed.
    He also faced extreme extenuating and mitigating circumstances:

    1) Congress was not in session, and it wasn't possible to simply send emails out to their Blackberries telling them to get their a$$es on planes so they could convene the new Congress tomorrow in a special session. The exigency of the crisis demanded government action immediately.

    2) Congress after the fact validated the decisions that Lincoln took as if they were actions of their own.

    3) The "by force" vs. "by consent" devolves to a philosophical discussion of whether a minority can ignore the decision of the majority when no rights violations are involved. While one can posit hypotheticals about Lincoln was going to do with regards to the question of slavery (although this requires ignoring the GOP plank, his consistent record of statements, and annoints him as a "king" since any actions WRT slavery required Congressional action), it was exact that - a "hypothetical" and therefore void of a "rights violation" that would justify minority disregard of the agreed to principle of majority rule.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zad Fnark View Post
    What's the reasoning for TR's spot?

    Just wonderin'

    ZF-
    If you're asking me...............

    Though TR was a conservationist(which i liked), his reasoning for establishing the Natl parks I have a problem with. He was a progressive, just like our current administration. And like our current admin, he thinks Americans are not smart enough to manage anything without the Fed Govt at the wheel.

    He also bred Taft for the job as pres and I didn't like him either, and both thier actions gave rise to Wilsons victory. Honestly, I think from Lincoln til Coolige sucked. There was the war btwn the states, WWI, a host of little uprisings and conflicts that we should have stayed out of, the great depression and a host of other scandals that continued to tarnish the office until Coolige took office and restored the confidence of the office with the American people.

  9. #24
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    So was it worth it?
    Taking down the biggest threat the US ever faced in its existence, without firing a shot

    HELL YEAH!

    Sun Tzu would be proud

    I always find it funny when ppl equate islamists in the same league as the soviets ....but then i have scary neighbour.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    So do you like your country better now or then?
    Now for sure because i feel no need to run away from it.

    I must also add if we go more into a country perspective, Dubya would rank pretty highly over here. Everthing i did not like about him vanished the moment he proposed the nuke deal. Which my govt in accepting it almost collapsed.

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    For questions regarding Lincoln's Consitutionality with regards to slavery, here's a great lesson outline with resources referenced.

    http://www.lincolnbicentennial.gov/u...nstitution.pdf

    For a more comprehensive look, here's a book:

    Lincoln's Constitution - Google Books
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  11. #26
    Patron Zad Fnark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    If you're asking me...............

    Though TR was a conservationist(which i liked), his reasoning for establishing the Natl parks I have a problem with. He was a progressive, just like our current administration. And like our current admin, he thinks Americans are not smart enough to manage anything without the Fed Govt at the wheel.

    He also bred Taft for the job as pres and I didn't like him either, and both thier actions gave rise to Wilsons victory. Honestly, I think from Lincoln til Coolige sucked. There was the war btwn the states, WWI, a host of little uprisings and conflicts that we should have stayed out of, the great depression and a host of other scandals that continued to tarnish the office until Coolige took office and restored the confidence of the office with the American people.
    Fair enough, I was curious.

    To be fair, TR did regret grooming Taft, which in the end, let to Wilson.

    ZF-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zad Fnark View Post
    Fair enough, I was curious.

    To be fair, TR did regret grooming Taft,

    ZF-
    To what extent though, why?

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    zraver,

    Madison was the principle author of the Constitution and won the Second War of American Independence. Victory or stalemate take your pick it ended the British threat to our country and to our expansion westward.
    that had more to do with napoleon than madison's leadership.

    Monroe followed this up be declaring that America was a power on par with Europe and would brook no more colonialism in the new world. Although he merely jumped ahead of where the British were already headed the Monroe Doctrine put us on the path to major power status.
    i agree, that's his one major accomplishment. although the US didn't have power to enforce this against France until the 1860s and against the UK until the 1890s. my guess is that as US power grew exponentially after 1860 something of the sort would have happened anyway.

    Lincoln did end the two vexing questions, but he did it by bald face constitutional violations. His actions during the war smacked of a king like disregard to the rule of law. he might well be considered the first imperial presidency. He also established the primacy of the federal government by force rather than by consent of the governed.
    well, shek answered this area nicely.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  14. #29
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    I never knew about his wife. Was she worse than Hillary or Michelle?
    Wilson's wife was the de facto president for the 2nd half of his term. He wasn't too good. She wasn't better than him. Both were "progressives" which is a code word for socialists.

    At least I can say Carter is not the 2nd worst president in history any longer. Obama has passed him and now marching toward the epic failure of LBJ.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    7th,

    He was a progressive, just like our current administration.
    he was more of a progressive, actually... he took on and broke monopolies/trusts that were actively subverting and remaking US law and politics. that's considerably harder than anything obama's done.

    Honestly, I think from Lincoln til Coolige sucked. There was the war btwn the states, WWI, a host of little uprisings and conflicts that we should have stayed out of, the great depression and a host of other scandals that continued to tarnish the office until Coolige took office and restored the confidence of the office with the American people.
    he was a highly honorable man with some questionable policies, such as the Immigration Act of 1924. also can't forget the highly silly Kellogg-Briand Pact.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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