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  • China Increasingly Stands Up To U.S

    Many in the US would not like this. But the world has to realize the new reality on the ground. It is a tectonic shift.

    China Increasingly Stands Up To U.S. On Global Stage
    3 Feb [NPR] In the past two weeks, Chinese leaders have tangled with the United States over the following issues: Iran sanctions, climate change, arms sales to Taiwan, the Dalai Lama, cyberattacks, military modernization and exchange rates. ....

    The increasingly harsh Chinese attitude toward the United States has left U.S. officials and China analysts wondering where U.S.-China relations are headed.

    At the State Department on Monday, spokesman P.J. Crowley seemed almost baffled by the strident Chinese reaction to the pending Taiwan arms sales. ...

    Kenneth Lieberthal, who advised President Clinton on China issues, attributes the country's increased assertiveness recently to a new sense of Chinese self-confidence, stemming from its strengthened position in the world economy in the aftermath of the global financial crisis. ....

    Lieberthal, now at the Brookings Institution, says this new feeling of Chinese confidence follows decades of China feeling "down and out" and not fully respected as a global player. With the greater confidence, therefore, has come a greater willingness to assert Chinese national interests — on climate change policy, the global economy and security issues ...

    The list of outstanding issues is long. An early challenge will be to work out a proper economic relationship. China's growth has been largely driven by its booming export sector. Chinese goods are relatively cheap, so manufacturing has shifted to China away from the United States. U.S. and Chinese economic interests could soon be colliding.

    "We are coming into 2010 with 10 percent Chinese growth and 10 percent U.S. unemployment," says Ian Bremmer, president of the Eurasia Group. "And those two 10s do not add up to 20. They are going to conflict with each other." ....

  • #2
    Both sides are going to act tough. When two giants want to bully each other, the world is going to suffer.

    Obama vows 'much tougher' stance on US-China trade
    4 Feb [BBC] President Barack Obama says he will be much tougher with China to make sure it opens its markets to trade with the US.

    Mr Obama told Democratic Party senators that he would put "constant pressure" on China and other countries to stick to their side of trade agreements.

    But he said he did not intend to take a protectionist stance towards China, warning that "to close ourselves off from that market would be a mistake".

    Tension between the US and China has increased over arms sales to Taiwan.

    Relations have also been strained by reports of Chinese cyber attacks on US-run websites and a planned visit to the US by the Dalai Lama.

    Earlier, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman warned Mr Obama that meeting the Tibetan spiritual leader would further erode ties. ....

    Comment


    • #3
      Thought this was a good article about the Taiwan arms deal.
      Sounds like a storm in a teacup.

      Blowing hot and cold
      What to make of the latest row between China and America over Taiwan?

      IS IT a crisis or just (show) business as usual? With China and America, it can be hard to tell. Almost immediately after the United States said that it intended to sell more than $6 billion-worth of arms to Taiwan, the Chinese went into a spin. They summoned the American ambassador to denounce this interference in China’s “internal affairs” (Taiwan is part of the mainland, says the government in Beijing), threatened to cut off military ties with the United States and said they would impose sanctions on American firms involved in the Taiwan deal.

      None of this looks good for the world’s most consequential relationship. From global warming to the sickly world economy to stopping nuclear proliferation in North Korea and Iran, co-operation between the established superpower and the rising one is vital to world stability. Why should either want to jeopardise this relationship?

      That question has produced several theories. One is that China’s spritely economy is making it less afraid of conflict with a tiring America, especially when it thinks that “core” interests such as its claim to sovereignty over Taiwan or Tibet are at stake. The other is that America timed the Taiwan arms sale in part to punish China—for its shabby treatment of Barack Obama during last November’s presidential visit to Beijing, for its foot-dragging at December’s Copenhagen climate summit and for its reluctance to support new United Nations sanctions on Iran. Of course, neither theory excludes the other and bits of both may be true. But a third possibility is that there is in fact less to this “crisis” than meets the eye.

      America is obliged under the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979 to provide the island with the arms it needs to defend itself. America and China both knew that the United States would announce the package at some time and that China would vehemently oppose it, as it always does. The package includes some sophisticated weapons, such as Black Hawk helicopters and Harpoon missiles, but it does not include F-16 fighters that the Taiwanese would dearly like. As to the timing, says a senior administration official, “this is one of those issues where the timing is never right.” It certainly would not have been clever to announce the sale immediately before or after last year’s presidential goodwill visit to China.

      If America’s announcement was expected, so was the indignant Chinese response. Denunciation and the cancellation of some military-co-operation meetings is in keeping with previous Chinese reactions. A new element this time was the public threat of Chinese sanctions against American firms involved in the Taiwan deal, but most of these have little or no business in China. One big exception is Boeing, which is huge in China. But for that reason it is unlikely that the Chinese will follow up on this particular threat.

      If the Taiwan weapons spat blows over, American officials will hail what they nowadays call the more “mature” relationship they have nurtured with China during Mr Obama’s first year. But many tests lie ahead. Some are mainly symbolic, such as a forthcoming meeting between Mr Obama and Tibet’s spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, which the Americans postponed last year to prevent it souring the president’s China trip. Others are more concrete, such as China’s reluctance to go along with new sanctions on Iran or to respond to America’s pleas to revalue the yuan. A world-shaking falling-out between China and America is always possible. But the falling-out over the Taiwan arms package is probably not it.
      link

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Merlin View Post
        Many in the US would not like this. But the world has to realize the new reality on the ground. It is a tectonic shift.

        China Increasingly Stands Up To U.S. On Global Stage
        Merlin,

        You may be right, but China has a decidedly patchy record in recognising the 'reality on the ground' (can any sane person argue that Taiwan is NOT to all intents & purposes an independent nation?), so there is no guarantee the rest of the world will do any better.
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
          Merlin,

          You may be right, but China has a decidedly patchy record in recognising the 'reality on the ground' (can any sane person argue that Taiwan is NOT to all intents & purposes an independent nation?), so there is no guarantee the rest of the world will do any better.
          Indeed. Also considering that all the equipment is defensive and not offensive. If the US had given them the submarines and F-16 which they covet so much maybe it would be a cause for concern for China.

          Having said that, China is going to be the US's worst nightmare in the coming decade(s) to come. Some people are doing a lot of sand head burrying, one day they will work up to a major surprise.

          Comment


          • #6
            Nothing new here, China almost enver works with the US or international community on important matters.

            arms sales, intellectual property, stopping Iran, currency issues and balance of trade, human rights.....

            Comment


            • #7
              It is very natural that these two major powers of the world today have competing interests that lead to conflicts and frictions in various fields in a long period to come!

              The world would be very surprised if the couple get along with each other cool and calm with perfect composure!

              The major difficulty of the US-China relationship lies with the US side for sure!

              It has to remain the most challenging issue for the US: How could the old lonely superpower calmly ADAPT itself to the strident steady rise of a realistically potential rival of equal match in almost any fields?

              In all honesty, I suppose even the US strategic community doesn't have the slightest clue except to look to past experiences for inspiration to deal with the CHINA issue!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Nothing new here, China almost enver works with the US or international community on important matters.

                arms sales, intellectual property, stopping Iran, currency issues and balance of trade, human rights.....
                Well, maybe!

                How about China stopping buying or dumbing US treasury bonds?

                Overall, common interests still outweigh confrontational divergences for the two sides, at least it seems so at the present!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                  In all honesty, I suppose even the US strategic community doesn't have the slightest clue except to look to past experiences for inspiration to deal with the CHINA issue!
                  And past experience states that China will not be a direct challenge in this half of the century and maybe beyond that as well.

                  Just adding up the numbers of the Cold War, 176 Divisions backed by 30,000 nuclear warheads with a reach that gone all the way to Mars and Venus and has had men in space longer than anyone else.

                  The numbers would state that China has a long way to go before it becomes a direct challenge on par with the USSR of old.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    And past experience states that China will not be a direct challenge in this half of the century and maybe beyond that as well.

                    Just adding up the numbers of the Cold War, 176 Divisions backed by 30,000 nuclear warheads with a reach that gone all the way to Mars and Venus and has had men in space longer than anyone else.

                    The numbers would state that China has a long way to go before it becomes a direct challenge on par with the USSR of old.

                    The warheads stuff is surely the thing of the past!
                    Mentality featuring that line of thinking is typically COLD WAR MENTALITY!

                    China of course can equally draw lessons and inspirations from past experiences, particularly the collapse of the seemingly powerful USSR just overnight, which serves as a perfect cold chilly reminder of what China should either avoid or aspire!

                    But then history, or past experiences merely serve as inspiration, not sth like absolute pointers for future course, particularly in the landscape of power shift in the international stage!

                    Who would have thougth that the US wud be the only superpower in the world today back in 1810, 200 years ago?

                    Then who wud, 30 years ago, have predicted that China wud be fast emerging as possibly the world's second largest economy in a matter of only a few decades?

                    We all should feel lucky in living an age teeming with such colossal changes with such rapidity, to which we all without exception bear eyewitness !:P
                    Last edited by ChicChina; 04 Feb 10,, 15:59.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      The warheads stuff is surely the thing of the past!
                      Only because we found better ways of killing.

                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      Mentality featuring that line of thinking is typically COLD WAR MENTALITY!
                      And yet, China is the only member of the N5 EXPANDING her nuclear arsenal.

                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      China of course can equally draw lessons and inspirations from past experiences, particularly the collapse of the seemingly powerful USSR just overnight, which serves as a perfect cold chilly reminder of what China should either avoid or aspire!
                      You mean like the mighty Qin Dynasty? Overnight collapse of Chinese power is not new to China either and yet, Chinese history is repleted with such examples.

                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      But then history, or past experiences merely serve as inspiration, not sth like absolute pointers for future course, particularly in the landscape of power shift in the international stage!
                      It is an absolute pointer in that China has yet to reach the technological, economic, and military stage the USSR once occupied. When you prescribed to challenge the only hyperpower in existence, at least know the yardstick, and not the 12 inch ruler, that you're measuring against.

                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      Who would have thougth that the US wud be the only superpower in the world today back in 1810, 200 years ago?
                      Certainly China did not think so but the foundations were laid back as far as 1776. The United States was the first country that won her independence from the British Empire. That was no light feat.

                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      Then who wud, 30 years ago, have predicted that China wud be fast emerging as possibly the world's second largest economy in a matter of only a few decades?
                      You're sh!tting me! China's rise is not new nor strange. Japan, Germany, Italy, Taiwan, South Korea, all went through it before China.

                      Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                      We all should feel lucky in living an age teeming with such colossal changes with such rapidity, to which we all without exception bear eyewitness !:P
                      I've seen things come and go. I saw Neil Armstrong landing on the moon live, on a 12 inch black and white TV. I watched the deaths of Zhou En-Lai and Mao Tse-Tung. The Fall of Saigon. The Oil Embargo. The Arab-Israeli Wars. The Fall of the Berlin Wall. The 1st and 2nd Sino-Vietnam Wars. The 1st and 2nd Chechen Wars. The Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. And watched Yugoslavia fall apart before my very eyes.

                      After all this, today seems to be more of the same.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Only because we found better ways of killing.

                        And yet, China is the only member of the N5 EXPANDING her nuclear arsenal.
                        Who has promised not to use nuclear arms first?
                        Only China has promised so AFAIK!


                        You mean like the mighty Qin Dynasty? Overnight collapse of Chinese power is not new to China either and yet, Chinese history is repleted with such examples.
                        You mean the Qin Dynasty in the 3 century BC?

                        I surely didn't mean that!
                        Qin Dynasty was an utter short-lived dynasty!
                        Its collapse was simply a matter of split second if compared with the USSR!

                        Yet the Qing Dynasty was a long-lived one spanning several centuries with long dying time spanning several decades!

                        Chinese history is surely a checkered one with ups and downs!
                        But now the Chinese people see no reason that the PRC wud collpase overnight! It stands a good chance to be live for several centuries!
                        PRC in a sense can be viewed as another dynasty among the many dynasties either preceding or succeeding it in the length of Chinese history counted by the millenium, if we can here rely on history for any pointers somehow! Think of Han Dynasty, Tang Dyansty, Yuan Dyansty, Ming Dynasty...so forth!;)

                        It is an absolute pointer in that China has yet to reach the technological, economic, and military stage the USSR once occupied. When you prescribed to challenge the only hyperpower in existence, at least know the yardstick, and not the 12 inch ruler, that you're measuring against.
                        Have to agree with you!
                        The Chinese are doing precisely you said here: aim the best to surpass, just as the Master Confucius famously remarks it: just aspire to do as well as someone who you think can be regarded as a role model (Jianxian Siqi in Chinese)!

                        The USSR was the last country the Chinese would like to emulate!
                        I thinkg that is the common consensus among the Chinese gov and Chinese people, who just view the USA and other top developed countries like Japan and Germany as worthy objects of studying and emulating!

                        The Chinese are also well aware of the fact that China has a long way to go to overtake and surpass these countries in key aspects such as science, technology, military, per capita GDP, social governance. The tasks are doubtless daunting, but the key point is that the Chinese are undaunting in facing up to these issues by working doubly hard with double caution and care! That gives me infinite hope for a bright future for China!

                        Certainly China did not think so but the foundations were laid back as far as 1776. The United States was the first country that won her independence from the British Empire. That was no light feat.
                        Agree! But that can't guarantee that the US could stay forever as the top dog in the world!

                        You're sh!tting me! China's rise is not new nor strange. Japan, Germany, Italy, Taiwan, South Korea, all went through it before China.
                        OK, China's rise is not new or strange, but just stunning?
                        Think of the scale, size, magnitude, manpower, population, potential...differences btw China and the rest of countries you mentioned here, isn't this rise no less a big feat than the emergence of the USA as a superpower a century ago?:P




                        I've seen things come and go. I saw Neil Armstrong landing on the moon live, on a 12 inch black and white TV. I watched the deaths of Zhou En-Lai and Mao Tse-Tung. The Fall of Saigon. The Oil Embargo. The Arab-Israeli Wars. The Fall of the Berlin Wall. The 1st and 2nd Sino-Vietnam Wars. The 1st and 2nd Chechen Wars. The Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. And watched Yugoslavia fall apart before my very eyes.

                        After all this, today seems to be more of the same.
                        Well, all these events are indeed memorable and significant in different aspects!

                        But don't you think that an even far more profound and significant episode of human history is unfolding itself before our eyes, an episode that is bound to be touching, or maybe already touching, nearly every apsect of yr and my and his lives? The advernt of an age of unprecedented interconnectedness featuring EAST-WEST POWER SHIFT amidst unstoppable globalization?!:))

                        Histories may all turn out to be more or less the same in essence!
                        But the specific dramas are surely with varying degrees of appeal and excitement, just like people who are all the same in nature but with different personalities, some people are dull, some people are interesting, while others intelligent!
                        Last edited by ChicChina; 04 Feb 10,, 17:08.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          Who has promised not to use nuclear arms first?
                          Only China has promised so AFAIK!
                          And no one believes it for the exact reason that your nuclear release authority and your field command are one and the same. CMC HQ would a priority target in any war and that is your nuclear release authority. In essence, use them or lose them. Only a military idiot would assume China would not at least consider their use under such a condition.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          You mean the Qin Dynasty in the 3 century BC?

                          I surely didn't mean that!
                          Qin Dynasty was an utter short-lived dynasty!
                          Its collapse was simply a matter of split second if compared with the USSR!
                          I mean the Qin. Overnight collapse after emerging victorious.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          Yet the Qing Dynasty was a long-lived one spanning several centuries with long dying time spanning several decades!
                          And it went the way of the USSR through a whimper and not a bang.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          Chinese history is surely a checkered one with ups and downs!
                          But now the Chinese people see no reason that the PRC wud collpase overnight! It stands a good chance to be live for several centuries!
                          PRC in a sense can be viewed as another dynasty among the many dynasties either preceding or succeeding it in the length of Chinese history counted by the millenium, if we can here rely on history for any pointers somehow! Think of Han Dynasty, Tang Dyansty, Yuan Dyansty, Ming Dynasty...so forth!;)
                          You want to give me next week's lotto numbers?

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          The USSR was the last country the Chinese would like to emulate!
                          You're more like the USSR than you could believe. Western police don't have howitzers.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          I thinkg that is the common consensus among the Chinese gov and Chinese people, who just view the USA and other top developed countries like Japan and Germany as worthy objects of studying and emulating!
                          Freedom of information is a start.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          The Chinese are also well aware of the fact that China has a long way to go to overtake and surpass these countries in key aspects such as science, technology, military, per capita GDP, social governance. The tasks are doubtless daunting, but the key point is that the Chinese are undaunting in facing up to these issues by working doubly hard with double caution and care! That gives me infinite hope for a bright future for China!
                          Hope and arrogance are two different things. There is no guarrantee that China would emerge the way you think it will.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          Agree! But that can't guarantee that the US could stay forever as the top dog in the world!
                          Nor does it mean that China is going to be the next top dog.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          OK, China's rise is not new or strange, but just stunning?
                          Think of the scale, size, magnitude, manpower, population, potential...differences btw China and the rest of countries you mentioned here, isn't this rise no less a big feat than the emergence of the USA as a superpower a century ago?:P
                          The only stunning example that I would subscribe to is WWII Russia. Economic, military, and determination to overcome an initially superior foe that frankly has no equal since.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          Well, all these events are indeed memorable and significant in different aspects!

                          But don't you think that an even far more profound and significant episode of human history is unfolding itself before our eyes, an episode that is bound to be touching, or maybe already touching, nearly every apsect of yr and my and his lives? The advernt of an age of unprecedented interconnectedness featuring EAST-WEST POWER SHIFT amidst unstoppable globalization?!:))
                          I've seen this so call East-West Power Shift before. Japan was going to overtake the US economically. The USSR would dwarf the Americans militarily. The Arabs were going to bring the Americans to their knees.

                          Wake me up when it happens.

                          Originally posted by ChicChina View Post
                          Histories may all turn out to be more or less the same in essence!
                          But the specific dramas are surely with varying degrees of appeal and excitement, just like people who are all the same in nature but with different personalities, some people are dull, some people are interesting, while others intelligent!
                          I had hope when the Berlin Wall came down. I no longer thought that either I was going to burn in a nuclear fireball or my grandchildren would still be manning the Wall.

                          Now, I am waiting for the next war.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            Nor does it mean that China is going to be the next top dog.
                            Sir,

                            All indications are that China would tail US as the world's top dog at some point of time in the future.

                            The growth of American population & its advanced state of progress would mean that the US would continue to be the top dog for a very long time but China is projected to follow US in economic power (which will invariably translate into political/military power).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              And no one believes it for the exact reason that your nuclear release authority and your field command are one and the same. CMC HQ would a priority target in any war and that is your nuclear release authority. In essence, use them or lose them. Only a military idiot would assume China would not at least consider their use under such a condition.
                              Then we shouldn't believe anything by word of mouth?
                              What is the point of laws and conventions in paper governing internationl realtions?
                              Should we say only a fool would believe the validity of agreements signed in paper?

                              I mean the Qin. Overnight collapse after emerging victorious.

                              And it went the way of the USSR through a whimper and not a bang.
                              Not quite!
                              Qin collpased due to internal resistance from its peole!
                              USSR collapsed due to failed competition with its rivalry!

                              You want to give me next week's lotto numbers?
                              Keep buying lottories as long as you see someone indeed makes it!:P

                              You're more like the USSR than you could believe. Western police don't have howitzers.
                              There is nothing China resembling the USSR except in name only!
                              China is China, with its own unique characteristics unseen nowhere else in the world!


                              Freedom of information is a start.
                              Unless you are talking about information that does no harm to national unity and social stability!

                              Hope and arrogance are two different things. There is no guarrantee that China would emerge the way you think it will.

                              Nor does it mean that China is going to be the next top dog.
                              Hope is what makes humanity different from animals!
                              Wud you like to deal with a man without hope in life or someone full of vim and vilitality and hope?

                              The only stunning example that I would subscribe to is WWII Russia. Economic, military, and determination to overcome an initially superior foe that frankly has no equal since.

                              I've seen this so call East-West Power Shift before. Japan was going to overtake the US economically. The USSR would dwarf the Americans militarily. The Arabs were going to bring the Americans to their knees.

                              Wake me up when it happens.
                              Japan is too small a place to really represent the East,I must say!

                              Nor could the USSR be said of a real eastern country!


                              I had hope when the Berlin Wall came down. I no longer thought that either I was going to burn in a nuclear fireball or my grandchildren would still be manning the Wall.

                              Now, I am waiting for the next war.
                              That is vague!
                              Hope you can be more direct in what you mean by you are waiting for the next war.

                              Comment

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