Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 30

Thread: powder question

  1. #1
    Regular
    Join Date
    07 Feb 12
    Location
    newmarket / soon to be cape coral fla
    Posts
    76

    powder question

    i know we have read about the problems with old powder & bad storage when the iowa's got reactived , so my question is couldnt they have manufactured new powder for the ships i mean it seems that when you activate a military assett you would want to eliminate any potental problems
    & from the get go the powder was going to impact thier effectiveness

  2. #2
    Patron
    Join Date
    22 May 09
    Posts
    234
    I thought they did manufacture new powder?

  3. #3
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,728
    The USN BB's had several different types of powder through out the war years and afterwards.

    For instance, during the war years certain powders were "smokeless" for day time shoots and "flashless" for night time shoots. different additives.

    Many stories are out there about mixing and combining leftover powders from 16"/45 & 16"/50 guns. In reality,no matter usage, all had to be reblended and tested before issue from their respective installations. There were different locations that issued them. The entries into the mag log would record its code and it tells you everything about the powder bags contained in that container.

    Until their final retirement in the early 1990's there were few different powders and shells being developed for their use had their carreers continued with the USN. Although no doubt tested they never became Fleet issued so you could not call them standard.

    It has been my experience that in the late 1980's - early 90's before retirement they carried both D-839 and some D-846 for the main battery shoots. Mainly, they relied upon the D-839 powder judging by what was carried.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 28 May 13, at 20:35.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  4. #4
    Regular
    Join Date
    07 Feb 12
    Location
    newmarket / soon to be cape coral fla
    Posts
    76
    thanks dred for answering ,but so what you saying is the powder wasnt that bad?? & reblend was no big deal??also did the powder effect the shooting in beruit by the uss new jersey,like i heard ??

  5. #5
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,728
    IMO, I can only speculate but there were many reasons for her shooting results in Lebannon. Off the top of my head I would say a list of about 5.

    There were many factors, budgets, training, politics, material conditions etc MAYBE an influence of powder but that one is very argumentative when you consider what happens before they issue powder and that ofcourse is tied to the budget and what is known from the last commisioning. New Jersey was also a very special case as compared to her sisters when you consider all factors and not just the normal critics stabs at it either. You have to consider the big picture with what is known and what is speculative and what is just baseless bullshit. Trust me when I tell you there is plenty of that alone.

    In the end they had a good understanding of what happened and what the failings were and what was learned helped contibute to the Iowa being as proficient as she became 4 years later..

    A big can of worms but luckily, especially in the New Jerseys case there is also plenty of information to compare material conditons, politics etc too from her last commisioning.

    Most dont want to have that lengthy discussion, they would rather just point fingers and thats it. Enough to justify a their point but not satisfy the equasion in its entirety.

    There is a big difference between the words of the men that were there and physical facts that prevailed against the armchair quarterbacks and what they believe..
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 29 May 13, at 01:56.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  6. #6
    Regular
    Join Date
    07 Feb 12
    Location
    newmarket / soon to be cape coral fla
    Posts
    76
    In the end they had a good understanding of what happened and what the failings were and what was learned helped contibute to the Iowa being as proficient as she became 4 years later..

    so the iowa was really proficient with 16" shooting??? i didnt know that , sad they didnt keep on honing the battleships

  7. #7
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Mar 05
    Location
    Panama City Fl
    Posts
    9,079
    Quote Originally Posted by blackzz28 View Post
    In the end they had a good understanding of what happened and what the failings were and what was learned helped contibute to the Iowa being as proficient as she became 4 years later..

    so the iowa was really proficient with 16" shooting???
    No they were not "really proficient" with the 16in guns. And yes re-blending powder is a big deal.

    And as Dred stated things like lack of training was also a contributing problem with their performance.

    sad they didnt keep on honing the battleships
    No it isn't. Battleships used in their primary role were past their prime by 1942. It was politics that brought them back in the 80s.

    I'm not one of the "Armchair QBs" that Dred mentioned.
    Last edited by Gun Grape; 10 Jun 13, at 02:58.
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  8. #8
    Regular
    Join Date
    07 Feb 12
    Location
    newmarket / soon to be cape coral fla
    Posts
    76
    i dont know dred said she was proficient

  9. #9
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Mar 05
    Location
    Panama City Fl
    Posts
    9,079
    Quote Originally Posted by blackzz28 View Post
    i dont know dred said she was proficient
    Dred is a guide on the New jersey.

    I am a retired USMC Fire Support man (0861) . I was in Beirut when she shot. And have conducted a few fire support exercises with the Iowa Class BBs In PR and Subic Bay.

    From personal, trained observation I can state that they were not good shooters. They might have been good by 1944 standards but not 1980-1990 ones.
    Last edited by Gun Grape; 10 Jun 13, at 02:59.
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  10. #10
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,728
    In some ways I have to disagree. New Jersey was pretty proficient during her Vietnam cruise and there are far many that could say that including observers. But then again into what box will we call proficiency. A shell that size blows big holes and probably alot of shcrapnel when it hits or explodes before contact with the fuse. As we noted above training and amount of training was a big factor. Blending powder must pass tests on each lot before issue. They all (facilities) have the same critieria to meet. The same powder blends where shot continiously from the 80's foreward but it took years for Iowa to hone the skill down to parameters. New Jersey never got that much time before being sent to support Beriut since she was the first returned to service. The updated report on the use of D-846 (although already used) was not released until Iowa and New Jersey were already out of service in 1994.

    The other criticaL factor beside budget, training, politics etc is wear. New Jersey although expended more rounds during Vietnam then both WW2 and Korea cruises combined and was not regunned before being put away in1969.

    If not mistaken only one gun on New Jersey in Turret 2 was replaced at reactivation and that person is here to perhaps correct that statement. And if so wear on the liners comes into effect. Wear that contributes to gunnery accuracy. Many factors including having a seasoned gun crew. The other sisters had already been regunned with exception to Wisconsin and her barrels were cutlassed before putting her away in the 50's.

    Many factors.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 11 Jun 13, at 22:58.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  11. #11
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Mar 05
    Location
    Panama City Fl
    Posts
    9,079
    Nothing was, or could have been, done to bring those boats up to an acceptable standard of accuracy.

    They were guns from a different era. Like giving a kid a smoothbore musket to shoot in a high power rifle competition.

    And we have gone over all this stuff starting about here.

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...-debate-9.html
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

  12. #12
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,728
    There we have too disagree again Grape. The people involved with Iowa's shooting alone support that view that accuracy was improved via modern testing equipment and the report on the d-846 also supports that static tests conducted at Indian Head replacing the d-846 powder with another would no doubt improve performance and logistics.

    Captain Sequest stood firmly behind the Iowas accuracy that was achieved by 1988.

    That was 5 years after Beriut.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 12 Jun 13, at 13:40.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  13. #13
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,728
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Dred is a guide on the New jersey.

    I am a retired USMC Fire Support man (0861) . I was in Beirut when she shot. And have conducted a few fire support exercises with the Iowa Class BBs In PR and Subic Bay.

    From personal, trained observation I can state that they were not good shooters. They might have been good by 1944 standards but not 1980-1990 ones.

    *Dread has done more then just be a "guide".

    Every man aboard including the Officers and those that served aboard had better be able to serve in the "guide" role. You will find that in all ships of the USN if given that role as a crewmember at the time from those in charge.

    The "guides" aboard wear red polo shirts and khakis and exit the ship after each tour.

    Dread dont.

    He has done many things including having seen them at exercise before retirement and has observed few other USN ships as well. He like the many that serve aboard are "men about foot" we prefer "crewmember" and do from the least important chores to many of the more important ones that continue to make her the sucess that she is.

    And yes, He has had the privy of escorting both civilian and military aboard ship more times then he cares to count.

    He has also been privy to men and Command that have sailed upon her through four seperate commisionings. These were men that made those calls, sailed that ship, shot those shots and set that criteria for firing those guns as well as the 5"'s.

    He has also been privy to those men that have been on the recieving end of those shots and salvo's both in exercise and real life wartime circumstances and has listened to their experiences both in private and in public speaking.

    The New Jersey's accuracy should not gaged upon her Beruit firing. She did the job given to her. Perhaps not as accurate as many would like.

    However, as mentioned in numerous postings many factors effect this including the fact that gunnery was a lost art since the Vietnam cruise for New Jersey and for the other sisters since deactivation following the Korean War when all four weere retired.

    In the early 1980's the Iowas had to "crawl before walking" as any gunnery officer knows all too well.

    Re-learn a lost art from 14 years prior that are now controlled by far more advanced computer aided systems including AEGIS and relying less upon experience.

    One can only imagine the price and problems of those guns being retrofitted and controlled by modern systems when much of it took human imput instead of computer automation.

    And by the time the Iowa's were pulled from service they no doubt proved that by proper funding, technology, experience, practice and procedure their accuracy was brought foreward far beyond Beruit and accuracy no doubt improved greatly.

    And there are many that would state the same exact without question including the Command structure.

    Perhaps not by Marine standards but then again ...They arent Marines.

    However they were/are missed by many in the USMC command structure as many reports and papers written they were a part of.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 12 Jun 13, at 18:19.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  14. #14
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 06
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    6,042
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    In some ways I have to disagree. New Jersey was pretty proficient during her Vietnam cruise and there are far many that could say that including observers. But then again into what box will we call proficiency. A shell that size blows big holes and probably alot of shcrapnel when it hits or explodes before contact with the fuse. As we noted above training and amount of training was a big factor. Blending powder must pass tests on each lot before issue. They all (facilities) have the same critieria to meet. The same powder blends where shot continiously from the 80's foreward but it took years for Iowa to hone the skill down to parameters. New Jersey never got that much time before being sent to support Beriut since she was the first returned to service. The updated report on the use of D-846 (although already used) was not released until Iowa and New Jersey were already out of service in 1994.

    The other criticaL factor beside budget, training, politics etc is wear. New Jersey although expended more rounds during Vietnam then both WW2 and Korea cruises combined and was not regunned before being put away in1969.

    If not mistaken only one gun on New Jersey in Turret 2 was replaced at reactivation and that person is here to perhaps correct that statement. And if so wear on the liners comes into effect. Wear that contributes to gunnery accuracy. Many factors including having a seasoned gun crew. The other sisters had already been regunned with exception to Wisconsin and her barrels were cutlassed before putting her away in the 50's.

    Many factors.
    The center barrel of turret II (it's ALWAYS that barrel such as on the Mississippi, Newport News & Iowa) was never fired in Lebanon. The gun captain of that gun lived across the street from me and said he was very disappointed because of that erosion pit.

    The barrel was replaced by one shipped down on a railroad flat car from Hawthorne, Nevada. The barrel change out was quite a challenge as Hawthorne was missing some of the rigging equipment needed for it (we built it new) and one of the plans for a piece was so faded out it took three of us with magnifying glasses to read the thing over a light table and draw a new plan.

    But for some reason, the GMC of the guns was sent over to my desk to give me a verbal report of how well the guns could shoot and if any structural problems resulted from the gunfire. Sorry, I don't have the time or authority to go into detail here but in a nutshell what seemed to be misses were actually on "target" as ordered. In other words, if a missile launcher was not hit but had near misses around it, that's the way it was supposed to be.

    Also, when we reactivated the ships, velocimeters were installed on the top of each turret to give highly accurate readings of any change in speeding bullets so targeting could be readjusted to suit.

    So, in my opinion those guns are the most accurate artillery pieces ever made.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  15. #15
    Regular
    Join Date
    07 Feb 12
    Location
    newmarket / soon to be cape coral fla
    Posts
    76
    thanks rusty & dreadnought , wow thats alot i didnt know , about the iowas shooting very impressive

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Nearly 53,000 Chinese children sickened by milk powder: govt
    By xrough in forum World Affairs Board Pub
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 22 Sep 08,, 07:33
  2. Answer a Question with a Question
    By Ironduke in forum World Affairs Board Pub
    Replies: 241
    Last Post: 18 Jun 07,, 02:16
  3. VLS Question
    By PubFather in forum Naval Warfare
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 16 Oct 06,, 01:42

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •