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Thread: What if battleships, fictional

  1. #31
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    Yeah well... 1 obsolete Swordfish was enough to cripple the Bismarck...

    And remember the Fritz X. 3 were enough for the Roma...
    Well, the USS Enterprise CVN-65 was nearly sunk by a badly parked tractor, anything can happen. The Fritz X could be jammed, and CAP makes it ineffective - the mother ship needed to be unmolested. This design also has a 10" armor deck, under a 1.5" bomb deck - with an armored splinter deck below the armor deck. It is the subject of a painting, not a proposal for a funded project.

    So where are your alternative ideas?
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 24 May 11, at 17:36.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    So where are your alternative ideas?
    Anti-aircraft BB: 16 twin 5", radar-guided turrets; 20 quad 40mm. Battlecruiser-type armor, 30+ knots speed. 4-6 seaplanes for recon and SAR duties. Massive AAA to protect the carriers. Use old BBs or cruisers for bombardment.

  3. #33
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
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  4. #34
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Nice design, IMO, need more space between the funnels you dont want one direct hit taking the powerplant down from an aerial dropped bomb. It may also produce too much heat from one area for the FCR radars to be effective. I do like the design.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  5. #35
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Nice design, IMO, need more space between the funnels you dont want one direct hit taking the powerplant down from an aerial dropped bomb. It may also produce too much heat from one area for the FCR radars to be effective. I do like the design.
    Thanks, I made a change based on your suggestion, added another pair of AA directors between the funnels (she now has 12 plus the two DP main directors)

    Attachment 25201
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    So where are your alternative ideas?
    Using WWII and 90,000 tons.....

    1x Midway class aircraft carrier (45,000 tons) 33 knots
    1x Oregon City class heavy cruiser (17,000 tons) 32 knots
    1x Fargo class light cruisers (10,000 tons) 32 knots
    3x Gearing class destroyers 36 knots (7884 tons combined)
    3x Allen M Sumner class destroyers. (6600 tons combined) 34 knots

    8" x 9
    6" x 12
    5" x 78
    40mm x 244
    20mm x x 209
    torpedo tubes x 60
    depth charge racks x 6
    combat aircraft x 100
    scout planes x 7
    men x 8284
    minimum range x 4500nm un-refueled
    Total weight x 86,484 tons standard displacement

    I have 1/2 to 1/3 the un-refueled ranged and 2.5x the men but have 19x the combat striking range.

    At 500 miles from the carrier (at take off) with 36 fighters, 32 dive bombers and 32 torpedo bombers I can deliver 32x 2000lb bombs and 32x 22.4" torpedoes. Assuming your BB's AAA fire is 3x more effective than the Musashi I will lose 54 of my bombers before you sink.
    Last edited by zraver; 24 May 11, at 18:42.

  7. #37
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    But you are on my side, and won't be attacking your own ship - your force is the rest of the task force that the big BB is part of, along with 40 additional destroyers and a logistics group

    Imagine the Musashi and the Yamato attack this group during a typhoon - the big guns will be the only effective weapons in these conditions - the long 18"/55 rifles will trump the 18.1"/45's of the Yamatos, and USN radar will let them walk the Japanese decks at 50,000 yards - the 4,000# super heavy projectiles will explode under the two Yamato's magazines.

    Yes it is a fictional scenario, for battleship enthusiasts. The setting sun in the painting is symbolic too, the heyday of the battleship had passed before this design might have been built.

    22.4" torpedoes? from aircraft?
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 24 May 11, at 19:30.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post

    Imagine the Musashi and the Yamato attack this group during a typhoon
    My last name isn't Halsey....

    Ok can battleships even fight in a Typhoon? I know they can in a typical North Atlantic storm but don;t have a clue about hurricanes and typhoons.

    1. 10m waves as seen during Typhoon Cobra rolled the USS Cowpens hard enough that the flight deck normally 44' above the water was within 12-15' of the sea.

    2. Typhoon waves change direction as the storm passes. Can ships that have to stay a certain couse to prevent capsizing even conduct a battle of movement?

    3. Could WWII era radars sea through weather? I know the images of Typhoon Cobras eye wall are radar images.

    That beign said, 50,000yd gunnery with 4000lb shells is impressive. Although I think such a ship if it had been built would have been retitred and left out of service post Korean war. As missiles developed and the public aversion to massive amounts of area damage grew the 4000lb shell might not sit well with the public. But if it had stayed in service what would the Soviet missile response be? A super Kirov, armor piercing anti-ship missiles, more Kirovs.....

    How would a megadreadnought(s) in US service have influenced the post war world? 18" could likely have fired a modified version of the W40 boosted fission device or a modified version of the W49 thermonuclear device.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post

    22.4" torpedoes? from aircraft?
    Yup, the US air dropped torpedo was the Mk13 and it had a 22.4" diameter 13.5' longand. It ran at 33 knots for 6800yds.

  10. #40
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yup, the US air dropped torpedo was the Mk13 and it had a 22.4" diameter 13.5' long and. It ran at 33 knots for 6800yds.
    I learned something

    USA Torpedoes of World War II

    I was under the impression that aerial torpedoes were 18" types, that explains a little more about how they sunk the Yamato's so effectively..

    Also thanks for the thought provoking questions - I will take a shot:
    1. 10m waves as seen during Typhoon Cobra rolled the USS Cowpens hard enough that the flight deck normally 44' above the water was within 12-15' of the sea.

    2. Typhoon waves change direction as the storm passes. Can ships that have to stay a certain course to prevent capsizing even conduct a battle of movement?

    3. Could WWII era radars sea through weather? I know the images of Typhoon Cobras eye wall are radar images.


    Cowpens was a much smaller ship (an 11,000 ton CVL, which had particularly bad seakeeping and rolled and pitched badly even in normal service, the CVL type was discontinued because of this - replaced by the more stable CVE, which behaved much better for flight opps), the actual USN battleships were in no serious trouble with the typhoon - they lost deck equipment, like boats and floatplanes - but were in no danger of capsizing. Destroyers always suffer in bad weather.

    Firing at the height of the bad weather might have been a problem, but the Battle of the North Cape was in similarly terrible weather. This particular design has very high freeboard, about 45 feet forward and amidships, and has a special sheer deck forward to permit any green water to run off aft of turret one, it also has a 158' beam, the wider than any actual battleship. The deck forward is also heavily flared to keep it dry under most sea conditions. Capsizing would be very unlikely in a typhoon, it would take a wave like the one in the Perfect Storm to endanger it.

    Radar would be more trouble, but the storm would have gaps, and that might be enough. The long wave radar of the early war would have had trouble for sure, but the later centimetric or proposed millimetric radars would be much more penetrating in heavy weather. The loss of Scharnhorst's radar antenna during the Battle of the North Cape was decisive, so radar can function usefully in heavy weather, DOY used radar to get so many hits during the same battle.

    If battleships had remained in favor, and the race to build bigger ones had gone on longer, it is conceivable such ships could have been built, lighter projectiles could have been used, like subcaliber rounds with sabots. They definitely could have fired nuclear projectiles - significantly more powerful than the Katies the USN had in the 1950's. The Soviet reaction would have been interesting, the Sovietski Soyuz class BB's might have been completed, and then larger follow on types - I explored this direction in my short story "Worthy Of Our Steel" http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...tml#post748074

    In the days before the missile submarine, a nuclear armed BB would have been an important strategic weapon with high visibilty and a substantial fear factor.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 25 May 11, at 05:26.
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

  11. #41
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
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  12. #42
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Plans for something that never was and never will be

    some sketches

    Attachment 25373
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

  13. #43
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
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  14. #44
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    WWII AA battleship

    Attachment 25817
    45,000 ton std disp. 900' x 108' x 25', 32 knots 4 screws, 2 rudders, 280,000 shp
    12,000 nm @ 25 knots.
    36 x 5"/54 (18 x 2), 25 rpm/g, 1200 rpg. Elevation: -5 to 85 deg.
    124 x 40mm/60 (31x4), 100 rpm/g, 3500 rpg. Elevation: -5 to 85 deg.
    8 x ADV radar gun directors
    Armor: belt: 2" - 5", deck: 5" AD, 2" WD, gun houses: 3" sides and top and handling room sides, 2" sides, roof and 1" floors in magazines. Gun directors: 2" top, sides and comm tubes. Conning tower: 4" sides and roof. All armor is STS.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 06 Aug 11, at 21:20.
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

  15. #45
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Heavy BB design painting

    late WWII heavy BB (fictional)
    Attachment 25819
    950' x 150' x 32'
    triple framing: trav, long, trav, 2000 WT comp
    90,000 tons std. disp, 31 knots, 6 screws - 420,000 SHP - 6 double reduction geared turbines, 12 boilers 750psi@900 deg F, 6 x 10 MW SSG's, 12 x 1 MW diesel gen. 4 rudders; Tactical radius 650 yd @ 23 knots, 15,000 nm @ 25 knots
    Weapons: 15 x 16"/50 (5x3) 150 rpg, 4 rpm/gun, elevation -2 to 47 deg
    36 x 90mm/55 (18 x 2) 1500 rpg, 30 rpm/g, elevation -5 to 85 deg
    72 x 40mm/70 (12x6) 3500 rpg, 100 rpm/g, elevation -8 to 90 deg
    10 x ADV radar gun directors.
    Armor: belt (KC): 3.5" - 16", main turrets (KNC): 25" face , 8" top, 16" sides and rear, 90mm turrets: 4" face, 3" sides top and rear, 2.5" handling rooms, barbettes (KNC): 12"-18", bulkheads (KNC): 14" (fore and aft), deck: 2" WD, 8" AD (KNC), 1.5" SD, 3" inner keel (quadruple keel) shell: 1.5" upper, 1" lower and outer keel, main magazines: 3" sides, roof and 1.5" floors, AA Magazines (90mm & 40mm): 2.5" sides, roof, hoists and 1" floors. gun directors: 3" face, 2" top, sides, rear and comm tubes, conning tower (KNC): 16" sides, 8" roof, 2: floor, STS armor (120k PSI) unless otherwise noted.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 06 Aug 11, at 21:07.
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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