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Thread: UN Potential for Haiti

  1. #1
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    UN Potential for Haiti

    Clearly Haiti is a failed state. With the highest level of poverty in the America's, a lack of a strong national government, a small police force universally reliant on the UN peacekeepers, and a devastated environment. Haiti could be the first chance for the UN to truly expand its power since its creation. The UN has never been more than an Aid Agency and a propaganda pulpit for the various powers.
    The UN has its first chance to "occupy" and fully run an international state of its own. Although others may point to the UN's failure to administer other states such as Somalia, Haiti is quite different. Geographically and somewhat politically isolated it is mostly immune external dangers. The people are multi- lingual providing the perfect state for an international government. It has economical potential in tourism, agriculture, and manufacturing.
    The UN needs to have its own territorial entity greater than simply a spec in the middle of NYC or Switzerland. It must be independent of foreign influence or the appearance there of. While some may fear a strong international government, I welcome it. World government should have a positive connotation not the negative fascist one it holds today. Haiti could be the starting point for this government.
    Haiti could be the recruiting group for a world peace keeping force. Their economy could simply be based on world governance. The UN's rule over Haiti would not necessarily be democratic but rather a mix of technocracy and weakened democracy. This is not to say that the Haitians would not have rights. In fact, they could eventually hold international passports signifying their status. They would of course have all aspects of human rights, especially equality in front of the law. I cannot necessarily describe the government because of course I am describing a perfect scenario.
    Personally I do not believe this is possible in comparison to how much I want this to occur. Fear of loss of sovereignty for all states not only the Haitians.
    The capital necessary to create this state would exceed basic UN finances. Finally the UN's lack of real power. However, the potential remains for this international state to exist.
    The world could come to see the extent of Haiti's humanitarian crisis, existing without the January earthquake and place it under UN control permanently. A one time investment in the UN by all states totaling nearly 100 billion over 10-20 years. The chance by small states to have the UN escape the confines of the current international power structure (most notably the unequal and hypocritical UN security council).
    I am posting this to see peoples reactions to the idea of a strengthened and independent UN. Please feel free to comment as you wish.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010011...08599195395900
    Last edited by joelopster; 20 Jan 10, at 07:02.

  2. #2
    Officer of Engineers
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    23 years into the job. Forget it. Nothing short of a Mongol dictatorship would do.

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    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    This has to be a contender for strangest/silliest idea I have heard in a very long while. The UN will spend every dollar it has just providing security for its own personnel from criminal elements, let alone from those aggrieved at being occupied by an outside entity.

    The UN has a role to play in co-ordinating aid, providing a nice talking shop and occasional means to co-ordinate policy & acting as a 'neutral' party. Lets leave it at that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    This has to be a contender for strangest/silliest idea I have heard in a very long while. The UN will spend every dollar it has just providing security for its own personnel from criminal elements, let alone from those aggrieved at being occupied by an outside entity.
    Those of us who served with UNPROFOR would disagree ... but only because we who wore the blue beret refused to allow the suits to do as they please.

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    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Those of us who served with UNPROFOR would disagree ... but only because we who wore the blue beret refused to allow the suits to do as they please.
    Sir,

    I'm not sure what the specific disagreement is. Would it not cost a fortune to fund the army required to make Haiti governable?

    On a related issue, I also wonder which nations would really want to contribute troops to this little piece of UN empire building. I wonder how many 'first world' nations would be keen to continue after the initial deployment. I have a vision of Bangladeshi & Nigerian troops doing a lot of the work.


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    Haiti was governable. After the intial intervention of Canadian and French troops after Duvalier. Law and Order was established by the barrel of the gun by troops who obeyed by the letter of the law and not by the intent of the law.

    A polceman waving a gun at unarmed civilians in order to get his cut of the loot would be and was shot.

    Haiti's demise began after the last US Marine left and long after Canadian and French troops left.

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    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Haiti was governable. After the intial intervention of Canadian and French troops after Duvalier. Law and Order was established by the barrel of the gun by troops who obeyed by the letter of the law and not by the intent of the law.

    A polceman waving a gun at unarmed civilians in order to get his cut of the loot would be and was shot.

    Haiti's demise began after the last US Marine left and long after Canadian and French troops left.
    Understood.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Sir,

    I'm not sure what the specific disagreement is. Would it not cost a fortune to fund the army required to make Haiti governable?

    On a related issue, I also wonder which nations would really want to contribute troops to this little piece of UN empire building. I wonder how many 'first world' nations would be keen to continue after the initial deployment. I have a vision of Bangladeshi & Nigerian troops doing a lot of the work.
    I firmly agree that the first world would not want to have troops continuously stationed in Haiti. However, look at the contribution Brazil has made to the peacekeeping force, many African nations have sent (before the quake) far more troops than many western nations. I propose that the UN would need the support of the second world/ emerging first world nations such as Brazil, Chile and Argentina to be successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelopster View Post
    Clearly Haiti is a failed state.
    I have a problem. Who are those people who decide which state is a failed state? Now it is Haiti, tomorrow - Birma, ten years later it will be you own country. Do not want.

    Even now, there are some countries who are yelling about de-facto occupation of Haiti by US troops.

    There are all those NWO conspirators then we need them...

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    It is a fact that the UN suits are always trying to appease the aggressors. From Somalia to Serbia they have caved in to agressive demands at a cost to the civilian populus. The British UN contingent to Bosnia was openly warned to Stop interfearing with serb units( Killing Muslims I might add).

    Needless to say our commanders ignored many orders and UN rules to save lives.

    I personally have a deep disgust for the UN Suits. What they do looks good on paper, However on the Ground Lives are lost.

    Severnica was a classic example, I have been fortunate to talk to a Dutch Paratrooper who informed me it was the UN that told them to leave, Needless to say they could not beleive it and the order was given 5 times and they asked for verification 5 times. You know the outcome.

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    There are certainly risks to this, but I would hope they move in this sort of direction.

    As for determining failed states. lets just say that if there's any doubt and conflicts in geo political interest . in one's mind then it probably wouldn't get a pass on the UN security counsul anyway (like Burma, I'm suurrre the PRC would not veto that! yeah right)

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    The cure: Franco

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    23 years into the job. Forget it. Nothing short of a Mongol dictatorship would do.
    Or Shi Huangdi, the Qin Emperor. If anyone makes trouble, just line some of his family members up against the wall - along with him. Eventually people will realize with their gut instinct that accountability for their actions - along with discretion - is key to survival.

    Then again, IMO someone like Francisco Franco would be most suitable for bringing order and progress to Haiti.

    Haiti could use a strong dictatorship - one with the balls to do what's right for the country regardless of mass opinion or geopolitical force majure. However, it will not be enough just to rule with an iron fist. The new government must address deforestation and other long-term problems effectively. Also, they must set up an economy that allows people to put food on the table and a shirt on their backs. As long as the new government is firm but fair, Haiti can begin to recover from its current crisis.

    If the UN can do that, then they have my vote. Otherwise, they should stay out of the Haiti problem.

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    Unfortunately, one who is strong enough to make the tough decisions to rule Haiti is probably also ruthless and corrupt. One who cares enough about the people is probably too weak to survive. As much as I hate to say this, a benign dictatorship like the one in Singapore or Taiwan are not that common. Even a semi-benign dictatorship in China could help Haiti. But then the Haitians will need to have a strong sense of nationalism to mask the desires for personal gains, at least on the surface.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Hmm...

    If the UN really wants to help Haiti, they need to figure out some way to set up an economy, one that's able to give Haiti a degree of partial sufficiency. With 70% unemployment, the country's current political arena is one which has had and will continue to be marked with corruption and ripe for despotism, dictatorship, etc. similar to what Devalier offered.

    The problem is, what kinds of industry, services, resources, could Haiti offer to create some form of economy?

    I reluctantly agree that a dictator and martial law may be the best interim fit. However, this dictator would need international backing and may need to be established and supported by a foreign nation (or coalition of nations). This could unfortunately result in a public perception that the leader was a "foreign puppet" and undermine his Haitian support, and possibly his ultimate effectiveness.
    USNA 2014?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo 2-3 View Post
    Hmm...

    If the UN really wants to help Haiti, they need to figure out some way to set up an economy, one that's able to give Haiti a degree of partial sufficiency. With 70% unemployment, the country's current political arena is one which has had and will continue to be marked with corruption and ripe for despotism, dictatorship, etc. similar to what Devalier offered.

    The problem is, what kinds of industry, services, resources, could Haiti offer to create some form of economy?

    I reluctantly agree that a dictator and martial law may be the best interim fit. However, this dictator would need international backing and may need to be established and supported by a foreign nation (or coalition of nations). This could unfortunately result in a public perception that the leader was a "foreign puppet" and undermine his Haitian support, and possibly his ultimate effectiveness.
    To establish a economy , you need at least basic political stability and some semblance of law and order first.

    I think the way they do it is basically just set up a consul at the very top, and they call the shot, it's member might include a few Haitian but will also be filled with UN reps, they don't answer to voters of any country.

    Suffice to say though, it's going to be a looooooooooong way to go before Haiti is anywhere close to being a functional state again, police force that actually does what it's suppose to do? education? fundemental infrastructure?

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