Artillery Training

[Aussiegunner]

I'm just wondering what the rest of the gunners and ex-gunners here think about the type of battery and regiment level training that their Armies and Marine Corps do/did in the past? In the early to mid 1990's we did a lot of fire and movement up and down the range and a fair bit of infantry minor tactics. However, we didnt' do much firebasing, we almost never prepared field fortifications, there was minimal combined arms work (we almost never helped the infantry/artillery/engineers call in fire) and we might have moved the guns by helicopter once in my five years of service.

At the time we were training to undertake a "Defence of Australia" scenario, which mainly involved the notion that we would be defending facilities from attack by special forces in Northern Australia. While I don't consider this to have been a very likely scenario (we were and are always going to be predominantly an expeditionary force), the way that the artillery would have most usefully contributed would have been similar to in COIN ops. Basicially I'd imagine the best strategy would be to stick a section in a firebase next to each of the facilities in Northern Australia to provide the infantry patrolling around it with overwhelming firepower in the instance that they bumped an enemy. The only time I see that the guns might be moved is in the instance that we located an enemy forward operating base that we wanted to destroy. Against enemy operating on foot I'd imagine it would involve one battery moving, probably by helicopter, then firing in support of the infantry and armour carrying out the attack.

Therefore, I don't see why moving the battery up to 13 times in a 24 hour period by truck was a very relevant form of training. Are your experiences the same or do your militarys train in a more relevant manner?

[S2]

AussieGunner Reply

Shot a lot, moved a bit, lifted a few (guns, that is:))), and only dug sleeping holes and individual fighting positions.

Mainly, I recall spending a lot of time trying to unfcuk our AN/TPQ-36 FIREFINDER radar. Hard to get and keep trained operators and a system qualified warrant officer in the Nat'l Guard.

Got a crapload of new toys to play with-PADS (Position Azimuth Determining System)-a gyro based predecessor to GPS. A VERY big deal then because it was a quantum leap in speed from manual survey. BCS (Battery Computer System-Fire direction), GLLD lasers, DMDs (Digital Message Devices), Gun Display Units, some new fuzes, new helmets, humvees, new 5T prime movers, M109A3, M198, M119 105mm (Brit gun). New radios and encryption gear too.

Missions varied with the units. So too the guns. Went from III Corps ARTY M109A3 155mm Sp Battalion with a reinforcement mission to Europe (moved A LOT) to a towed 105mm unit with a RACO (Rear Area Combat Ops) Korean focus (didn't move nearly as much).

Sorta sums it for me.:)

Gun Grape will have some good stories.

[Triple C]

Hmm. Is there organic security troops for arty, or were you expected to defend yourselves?

[Aussiegunner]

Hmm. Is there organic security troops for arty, or were you expected to defend yourselves?

Australian Army doctrine was (and as far as I know still is) to co-locate the battle groups' artillery battery with a company of infantry when it is in the field, but the gunners are expected to contribute. For example, during the Battle of Coral in Vietnam Australian gunners participated in a bayonet charge with the infantry to re-capture a gun that the NVA had over-run. At larger bases such as Nui Dat the Artillery along with the service corp types provided the patrols around the base while the infantry were out bush on operations.


Arty can also do a lot for its' own defence through direct fire on the enemy. A couple of splintex rounds down range can knock the wind out of the most determined opponent, as demonstrated again at Coral where the artillery entirely cleared the overrunn mortar platoon of NVA by putting splintex over it. We were always less confident about our DF capabilities against tanks though, we couldn't match the accuracy of them and if we had fired and given away our position on operations it would basically have been a death sentance.

[Aussiegunner]

Shot a lot, moved a bit, lifted a few (guns, that is:))), and only dug sleeping holes and individual fighting positions.

Mainly, I recall spending a lot of time trying to unfcuk our AN/TPQ-36 FIREFINDER radar. Hard to get and keep trained operators and a system qualified warrant officer in the Nat'l Guard.

Got a crapload of new toys to play with-PADS (Position Azimuth Determining System)-a gyro based predecessor to GPS. A VERY big deal then because it was a quantum leap in speed from manual survey. BCS (Battery Computer System-Fire direction), GLLD lasers, DMDs (Digital Message Devices), Gun Display Units, some new fuzes, new helmets, humvees, new 5T prime movers, M109A3, M198, M119 105mm (Brit gun). New radios and encryption gear too.

Missions varied with the units. So too the guns. Went from III Corps ARTY M109A3 155mm Sp Battalion with a reinforcement mission to Europe (moved A LOT) to a towed 105mm unit with a RACO (Rear Area Combat Ops) Korean focus (didn't move nearly as much).

Sorta sums it for me.:)

Gun Grape will have some good stories.

We didn't even dig individual fighting positions in many instances, which I think is woeful. During my entire career I never dug a full sized pit with OHP, the closest I came was an uncovered one. Its a skill and a habit that all soldiers need to get into, especially arms corps that might actually need to fight from them!

PADS, is that what we used to call a director? I know it was gyro based, though I wasn't an operator command post so I don't know much more than that and that they used to give us an angle to it from the dial sight to get the guns all pointing in the right direction. Incidentally, I was on the L-119, essentially the same gun as the M-119. How did you operate them in rear area op's, did you set them up for 360 degree firing on a fire base to cover a specified area or were you expected to be mobile to hit an incursion?

[S2]

AussieGunner

"How did you operate them in rear area op's..."

Usually with the open end of the barrel pointing out of the perimeter...;)

We had a RACO mission for I Corps so had a LOT of turf to cover. Batteries were expected to operate semi-autonomous. Never sent guns but some of us attended TEAM SPIRIT in S.K. and had a look at our notional A.O.

Lot of tight valleys and big hills. Gonna be a lot of H.A. fires. Thank God we weren't shooting Pigs (M114) and required to dig recoil pits! Couldn't count on any infantry even though we were direct support to a light infantry brigade of three battalions. FDC/BOC (battery operations center) had a M-60 MMG, advance party had an M-60 and maybe a couple more. Seems we had four or five M-60s all told in the battery and we had .50 cal ring-mounts on our prime movers so a fair amount of firepower. Course, we had our guns too...:))

Beehive (M546 APERS-T) baby.

"PADS, is that what we used to call a director?"

Dunno. We were a direct support battalion to a separate light infantry brigade so we had a lot of stuff most units didn't. Our own metro, mortar-locating radar (AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder), and survey sections. PADS was a device mounted on the back of a jeep or humvee. Had to orient over a surveyed point for 20 minutes every 3 or 4 hours. Guys would drive around and survey in orienting stations and EOLs (End Of The Orienting Line) so that we only rarely laid guns by magnetic.

The battalion got M119s just after I left the service. Most Army 105mm battalions were shooting the M119 but for some strange reason we didn't even have the M102 105mm How. We were still shooting the M101A1.

In fact, I may have been one of the world's last M101A1 battery commanders.

However, Rakkasan, a former member of the same battalion (and one of our long lost WABBITS) has these lovely photos of our boys firing the M119 at the Yakima Firing Center in central Washington-

[Aussiegunner]

"Usually with the open end of the barrel pointing out of the perimeter...;)"

:)

"We had a RACO mission for I Corps so had a LOT of turf to cover. Batteries were expected to operate semi-autonomous. Never sent guns but some of us attended TEAM SPIRIT in S.K. and had a look at our notional A.O."

Lot of tight valleys and big hills. Gonna be a lot of H.A. fires. Thank God we weren't shooting Pigs (M114) and required to dig recoil pits! Couldn't count on any infantry even though we were direct support to a light infantry brigade of three battalions. FDC/BOC (battery operations center) had a M-60 MMG, advance party had an M-60 and maybe a couple more. Seems we had four or five M-60s all told in the battery and we had .50 cal ring-mounts on our prime movers so a fair amount of firepower. Course, we had our guns too...:))


Beehive (M546 APERS-T) baby."

Frickin awesome! We had to do with an M-60 per gun crew and for the CP and then a Minimi when they replaced the 60's. We used to sit them on the roof of the truck on a bipod when we were driving ... a little less firepower than a ring monted .50 but then we would have been issued Beehive (we called them Splintex) too. I never saw them fired but I found some of the darts on the range once, nasty little buggers.


"Dunno. We were a direct support battalion to a separate light infantry brigade so we had a lot of stuff most units didn't. Our own metro, mortar-locating radar (AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder), and survey sections. PADS was a device mounted on the back of a jeep or humvee. Had to orient over a surveyed point for 20 minutes every 3 or 4 hours. Guys would drive around and survey in orienting stations and EOLs (End Of The Orienting Line) so that we only rarely laid guns by magnetic."

Doesn't sound like a director, that was a tripod mounted device that the operator's used to give us our bearing. We had a survey section per regiment as well, though the counterbattery radar is a division asset. They are opeating UAV's now too.


"The battalion got M119s just after I left the service. Most Army 105mm battalions were shooting the M119 but for some strange reason we didn't even have the M102 105mm How. We were still shooting the M101A1.

In fact, I may have been one of the world's last M101A1 battery commanders."

Nothing wrong with that! The Australian Army Reserve is still operating the
M101A2 as far as I know. It's a much loved gun here.

[Aussiegunner]

Sorry, I mean M2A2.

[S2]

Aussie Gunner

"Doesn't sound like a director, that was a tripod mounted device that the operator's used to give us our bearing."

Gotcha. M-2 Aiming Circle-

Lovely piece of equipment that I used to teach at Ft. Sill decades ago-

[Aussiegunner]

"Doesn't sound like a director, that was a tripod mounted device that the operator's used to give us our bearing."

Gotcha. M-2 Aiming Circle-

Lovely piece of equipment that I used to teach at Ft. Sill decades ago-

I've just looked that one up. Same type of equipment but I'm sure that I heard ours had a gyroscopic compass rather than a magnetic one. Maybe we were using some sort of British kit, given that we bought the guns from them.

[1979]

"Doesn't sound like a director, that was a tripod mounted device that the operator's used to give us our bearing."

Gotcha. M-2 Aiming Circle-

Lovely piece of equipment that I used to teach at Ft. Sill decades ago-

Is that piece of survey equipment still in use ?

No offense but looks like it was designed in ww2.

[ArtyEngineer]

Is that piece of survey equipment still in use ?

No offense but looks like it was designed in ww2.

It most certainly is, if it aint broke dont fix it ;)

Arty

[1979]

It most certainly is, if it aint broke dont fix it ;)

Arty

The replacement cycle must have serious problems if only looking at commercial equipment available on the market.

[RustyBattleship]

Yes, TRAINING is a b*tch and often very boring. No, you didn't have other field units supporting you. They were someplace else TRAINING in some other situation.

It's when you get down to the REAL thing when all that training pays off. Had to move your artillery pieces by truck 13 times a day? Good. Now you know how to do it fast and efficeintly when you have to get the hell out of return incomings or need to support another unit a few kilos down the road.

It is repitative and often very boring. But when you got bad guys shooting back you will thank the all mighty that you know what to do, when to do it and to do it with speed and efficeincy you didn't think possible thanks to the incessant training.

[Gun Grape]

The replacement cycle must have serious problems if only looking at commercial equipment available on the market.

Take some of that commercially available equipment, throw it in the back of a truck, bounce it around for 2 weeks, Then put it on a ship for 2 months. Fly it off that ship to some remote mountain. Drop it a few times. Then tell me if it works. Without batteries 24/7/365.

The M2 Aiming Circle does. Thats why its still here.

S-2 when were you a M101 Btry Commander? Both the Army, in Alaska, and the Marine Corps used the M101 until 1995.

I was in a split M198/M101 battery in 1995. We were suppose to take both types of guns on float. The Army came out and declared the 101 obsolete. Even the guys at Sill were taken by surprise. We, the MEU, had to do a big recock, as far as who does Arty raids and other maneuver/deployment issues.

Have a meeting soon but will add more on training during the 80s and 90s later from a MC perspective.