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Thread: Purges

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Look at what Joffre did in 1914.You just cannot know how an officer will behave until you see it in battle.What happened with our friends was just natural selection.See the Germans or us for comparison.The same thing occurred.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    See the Germans or us for comparison.The same thing occurred.
    Not exactly.
    May 1940
    Von Küchler- 18th Army
    Ernst Busch -16th Army
    Strauß- 9th Army
    Von Kluge- 4th Army
    Von Stülpnagel- 17th Army
    Von Reichenau- 6th Army
    Von Weichs-2nd Army

    June 1941
    I'm not going to repeat myself, with one exception nothing has changed.
    ( Von Schobert - 11th Army)
    Von Küchler- held command until jan 41 promoted commander of Army Group North
    Ernst Busch- held command until October 1943, promoted Commander of Army Group Center
    Strauß-held command until jan 1942 ( for health reasons of course :P )
    Von Kluge- held command until dec 41 promoted Commander of Army Group Center
    Von Stülpnagel-held command until October 1941 replaced by Hoth.
    Von Reichenau- held command until Dec 1941 promoted commander of Army Group South
    Von Weichs-held command until July 42 promoted Army Group B .
    Von Schobert- September 12, 1941 died in a plane crash.

    I willing to admit that the germans had guessed right in 1939 and 1940 which general was going to win the natural selection for the position of army commander but that does not explain why the soviet guessed wrong .
    Last edited by 1979; 21 Jan 10, at 19:13. Reason: /rant
    J'ai en marre.

  3. #18
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    The Soviet Generals won in Mongolia and Finland.They did not survived defeats of 1941.The Germans were replaced when the tide turned against them from 1943 onwards(sometimes even sooner- Von Sponeck in Crimea).That the German General corp was on average better than the Soviet one at the start of the war goes without much saying(maybe that's a prejudice of mine,not necesarilly the truth).
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    Konev supposedly was an ardent communist and obviously brilliant. Zhukov won the fight versus the Japanese and he was kept. Guys, I think you are looking at it completely from the wrong angle. The purges was not about military capability, it is about emasculating the Red Army as a political faction capable of independent actions apart from the party. You can tell this by looking at why the purges stopped. When Europe became ablaze.

    "Power comes from the barrel of a gun," said Mao. The obscure but far more important rejoin is: "The gun must NEVER control the Party. The Party must own the gun."
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    The point of the book we're commenting upon is that the purges didn't really touched the professional core.They touched the loyal party servants(with some slippages) that kept the army under control and gave a helping hand during the repression of the country.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  6. #21
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    1979 reply

    I went on to study about the battle of Warsaw.Quite a poor show by Tukhacevsky.Suvorov may have a good point on this one.As for the theoretical work,we all know Generals don't write their books.Capt's and Majors do the trivial work.The bosses only sign it and ''go to a coffee'' with the secretaries.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    Guys, I think you are looking at it completely from the wrong angle. The purges was not about military capability, it is about emasculating the Red Army as a political faction capable of independent actions apart from the party. You can tell this by looking at why the purges stopped. When Europe became ablaze.

    Purge of the Red Army in 1941 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Your opinion ...please ?
    J'ai en marre.

  8. #23
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    The point of the book we're commenting upon is that the purges didn't really touched the professional core.They touched the loyal party servants(with some slippages) that kept the army under control and gave a helping hand during the repression of the country.
    How does Suvrov prove his assertion, given the numbers of MD/Army/Corps level commanders executed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    I went on to study about the battle of Warsaw.Quite a poor show by Tukhacevsky.Suvorov may have a good point on this one.As for the theoretical work,we all know Generals don't write their books.Capt's and Majors do the trivial work.The bosses only sign it and ''go to a coffee'' with the secretaries.
    That's interesting. Please elaborate. I have vague impressions that this issue might have been covered by a very old thread deep in WAB bowls but I come off with the impression that there wasn't much evidence to support the idea that Tukhachevski was less competent than his successors, one of whom famously wrote an essay in praise of the horse wagon over motorized vehicles.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  9. #24
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    By showing that many of the commanders had:
    -a poor record in combat,but a distingueshed career of internal terrorism
    -some of those commanders hadn't planned anything in their AoR(Blucher in the Far East)
    -no/little theoretical work on military matters
    -lacked military education(or had little education in general)
    -many were mere party lackeys
    -many of them came from the security service
    -failed to implement military discipline and training standards in their commands.
    -useless drunkards
    Those would apply only to those that held commands.The military prosecutors,sport department,forestry managers that had military rank do not count.
    Like I said before,there are some points that sound interesting.One needs to verify all these.And skip the exagerations.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  10. #25
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    That's interesting. Please elaborate. I have vague impressions that this issue might have been covered by a very old thread deep in WAB bowls but I come off with the impression that there wasn't much evidence to support the idea that Tukhachevski was less competent than his successors, one of whom famously wrote an essay in praise of the horse wagon over motorized vehicles.
    I said he MAY have a point.My personal view on his performance:
    -he failed to control his forces and was too far back from the frontline
    -although it wasn't in his power to command the 1st Cav Army,he should have known that they weren't coming to Warsaw and take this into account
    -failed to read the Polish deployments
    -logistics are ignored by Russian generals almost as a tradition,but there is a limit.His idea about them was that logistics don't exist.
    -his main effort was supposed to envelop Warsaw from the N,force 3 rivers, cut the comunications between Warsaw and Danzig at Torun(which was an old German fortress,btw),than move S.All these while he failed to secure the LOC,the Brest-Warsaw railway.
    -reserves,what a rotten bourgoise concept
    -in short,he sent his troops in a killing zone and made sure they had no escape.

    It is true the Poles,like the Germans at Tannenberg,intercepted the Soviet comms.That was important.But the Poles could have been beaten fair and square by a more down to earth Soviet commander,regardless of that.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  11. #26
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    I went on to study about the battle of Warsaw.Quite a poor show by Tukhacevsky.Suvorov may have a good point on this one.As for the theoretical work,we all know Generals don't write their books.Capt's and Majors do the trivial work.The bosses only sign it and ''go to a coffee'' with the secretaries.
    But he won at Tambov and Kronstadt , should that not count for something...
    J'ai en marre.

  12. #27
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    No Unless we consider those who fought our mountain partisans the greatest COIN fighters ever.And I really don't like Draghici or Pantiusha.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  13. #28
    Senior Contributor Andrey Egorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
    But he won at Tambov and Kronstadt , should that not count for something...
    That would count if he was a concentration camp commander, not Head of the Staff.

    You should put Yakir in line. No one exceled him in eliminating people on per cent basis.
    We're so bad, we're even bad at it

  14. #29
    Senior Contributor 1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    But if the point about the number of politrucs and blue eyed boys that ended dead compared to veritable military officers turns to be true, it's something that will indeed change a chapter in WW2 historiography.
    How could it ?

    The implementation of the single command system in the red army between 1925 and 1928 meant in practice that the military commander ( from company to corps level ) joined the Party and became his unit’s political officer;
    or a deputy commander was sub-ordinate to him for for political work.
    The basic idea was clear:
    If you really want to get ahead in the game... you must join the party.
    J'ai en marre.

  15. #30
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Hmm,I presume you don't confuse those who work with their mouth with those who have real jobs.Commanding troops,working in a staff are real jobs,that require professional knowledge.There is of course the lip service towards the Party,you can even have a ''socialist military art'',opposed of course towards the ''capitalist military art'',but it doesn't change things.What interested me was his revelation that those who were presumed to be professionals,in fact weren't.As a result they didn't actually did what was the military officer's job.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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