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  • #61
    from Financial Times:

    Is China ‘the mother of all bubbles’?
    By Arthur Kroeber, managing director of Dragonomics Research & Advisory
    Published: March 9 2010 04:00 | Last updated: March 9 2010 04:00

    Is China a bubble? External market sentiment has gyrated wildly from one extreme, thinly supported opinion to another over the past year.

    A year ago consensus held that China faced feeble growth and social revolt by an army of millions of laid-off workers. That turned out to be wrong. By mid-year consensus believed China’s spectacular growth would continue to accelerate. That is turning out wrong, too.

    Now the flavour of the month, introduced by legendary short-seller Jim Chanos, is that China is “the mother of all bubbles”. Wrong again.

    To the short-sellers, a cursory inspection of various indicators makes it “obvious” that China is a giant bubble. We agree that China’s economy suffers from many distortions and systemic mispricing of capital.

    But the problem is that a lot of what goes on in China’s economy is non-obvious, especially to people who have not bothered to educate themselves on the unusual structure of China’s political economy.

    The easiest way to understand this is to look at the property market. Pessimists note that China’s commercial and office markets are wildly overbuilt, and that house prices are far too high relative to household incomes. Therefore, prices must crash dramatically, with dire consequences for the economy.

    The premises are true: the commercial and office markets are overbuilt, and house prices are too high relative to income. But the conclusions do not follow so straightforwardly.

    In macroeconomic impact, the commercial and office markets are of marginal relevance since they account for only 20 per cent of real estate construction volume. They could collapse and remain in the doldrums for years without having a material impact on heavy industrial demand. Housing is the key driver.

    But here a variety of hidden subsidies enable people to buy much pricier flats than their income alone would allow, and with little leverage. This helps to sustain rising house prices while reducing the chances of a leverage-fuelled banking collapse.

    Roughly 80 per cent of China’s urban residents own their homes – an astonishing number for a country that only began to privatise its housing stock in 1998. In most Western countries, by comparison, average home-ownership rates are around 60 per cent.

    The biggest driver of home ownership has been implicit government subsidies. One-third of home owners purchased their homes at subsidised rates from their work units during the initial housing reform programme.

    So long as these hidden subsidies continue to have a market impact – and many Chinese urbanites flipping luxury homes today started with a small, government-subsidised apartment – house prices can continue to look strangely high.

    Eventually – meaning over the next five years or so – prices will have to normalise, and new housing construction will need to reflect underlying demand from new, low-income urbanites, rather than the desire of the existing urban middle class to store their wealth.

    Government policy should anticipate and encourage this shift, by taxing property values and encouraging the development of more low-cost housing. A property tax would help bring down prices and provide local governments with a sustainable revenue stream.

    Private developers, meanwhile, have little incentive to build affordable housing while margins on luxury homes are so much higher. Unlike Singapore or Hong Kong, China has no national or municipal housing authorities responsible for building cheap apartments.

    Nobody is arguing that the imbalances and inequities in China’s housing market are not great. But we have a hunch that this is a market that can stay irrational longer than those betting against it can remain solvent.
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

    Comment


    • #62
      LOL,

      instances when PM Wen wants to cool down the real estate market, from 2004 to 2010.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by xinhui; 12 Mar 10,, 23:59.
      “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by xinhui View Post
        LOL,

        instances when PM Wen wants to cool down the real estate market, from 2004 to 2010.
        A comic piece.
        Attached Files
        夫唯不爭,故天下莫能與之爭。

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by snowhole View Post
          A comic piece.
          a good one, the Chinese is well-trained in the art of handing political BS.
          “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

          Comment


          • #65
            No mistake, that’s him,very good at lipservicing people. He is planting a time bomb for China.

            In our city, not a big city, in North East China, price for a square meter is about 10,000.00, a million Yuan can buy a 10 0 square meter flat (floor space, the space you can use is about 70% of that area, with 70 years land lease). What a million Yuan can buy in other parts of the world?

            Some one said this: http://laiba.tianya.cn/laiba/CommMsg...f=stickytopics

            How long can a Chinese save enough to buy such a lat? Here is someone’s calculation:

            If she is a hooker (they are categorized as standard upper middle class in China), and with average appearance, she can make 200 Yuan from one client, so she must take 5000 clients to make a million (some of them make 100 Yuan a client). She has to work 7 years, two clients a day, sat. and Sundays holidays included, to save enough to purchase that flat provided she doesn’t smoke, drink or eat, and no venereal disease, no boy friend.

            In cities like Beijing or Shanghai, people make more, but they must consider if they can afford a 100 square meter flat at 20000Yuan a meter, so a hooker in these cities must be more attractive, and charge more.
            Last edited by middle earth; 15 Mar 10,, 10:09.

            Comment


            • #66
              Probably the government's goal is to continue inflating the bubble at as low a rate as possible, since keeping prices static is unfeasible in a bubble environment (you'll overshoot and undershoot occasionally and one time you overshoot the bubble will burst). Once the global economy recovers the Chinese government will aim to burst the bubble and hope the economy can absorb the effects.

              I'm not sure how important the property bubble is, however. While home-ownership rates in China are particularly high, the amount of leverage Chinese homebuyers have obtained is low compared to the leverage in other countries. The bubble will pop, and will wipe out a lot of people, but the damage will be less than it would be in the United States.

              Comment


              • #67
                re sustained property prices; I've heard that Mumbai's premier lodgings have become some of the world's most expensive real estate.

                1 BUNGALOW (200 SQUARE METERS) FOR SALE IN NERUL, mumbai, India 3863533

                Here, 150 lakh (lakh is 100 thousand iirc and crore is 10 million), memory serving, is equivalent to $300,0000 USD or 20 mn RMB. Mumbai supposedly had such outrageous property prices since the 90s, although I don't know whether any such bubble has popped.

                Comment


                • #68
                  hehe, I ultra-shorted Chinese stock when I saw the latest inflation number out last week.

                  This is NOT an investment advice.
                  Last edited by xinhui; 15 Mar 10,, 19:26.
                  “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                    hehe, I ultra-shorted Chinese stock when I saw the latest inflation number out last week.

                    This is NOT an investment advice.
                    Explanation? Sorry I haven't been following those numbers.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      the only thing that can really screw up PM Wen's econ policy is inflation, when the inflation goes up, it might force the interest rate (and to some degree the value of yuan) to change. Stock market hates that.

                      Put it this way, every point the Xinhua drops, I double my money. if it gains a point, my lose is double also.


                      This is NOT an investment advice.
                      Last edited by xinhui; 15 Mar 10,, 19:58.
                      “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Increase the interest rate or just tell the banks not to lend, the banks are still state-controlled, no?

                        Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                        the only thing that can really screw up PM Wen's econ policy is inflation, when the inflation goes up, it might force the interest rate (and to some degree the value of yuan) to change. Stock market hates that.

                        Put it this way, every point the Xinhua drops, I double my money. if it gains a point, my lose is double also.


                        This is NOT an investment advice.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          What were the details of 2008? Apparently the CPC failed to control inflation that year, and it took until the financial markets collapse before inflation fell to reasonable levels. That year, inflation hit 10% before it dropped.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by cdude View Post
                            Increase the interest rate or just tell the banks not to lend, the banks are still state-controlled, no?
                            More complicated than that. inflation will force Wen to "buy" more dollars in order to keep the Yuan's peg.
                            Last edited by xinhui; 15 Mar 10,, 21:59.
                            “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              LOL, just saw this

                              Global Times - China remains top holder of US treasury bonds


                              China remains top holder of US treasury bonds
                              Source: Global Times
                              [11:00 March 16 2010]

                              Rank Country Amount of Holdings

                              1 China $889 billion
                              2 Japan $765.4 billion
                              3 OPEC $218.4 billion
                              4 UK $206 billion

                              Table:Major holders of US treasury bonds (By the end of January, 2010)

                              China cut its US Treasury bond holdings to $889 billion at the end of January from $894.8 billion the previous month, but remains the largest holder of US debts, according to figures released by the US Treasury Monday.

                              Foreign demands for US treasury securities fell in January. Japan, the second largest holder of US debts, trimmed its holdings to $765.4 billion, $300 million lower than that of the December, 2009. Other major debtors of the US like Brazil, Hong Kong and Russia sold $200 million, $2.1 billion and $17.6 billion bond holdings respectively in January, the data shows.

                              Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao reiterated Sunday that US treasury bonds are backed by US national credit and China hopes the US will take practical measures to reassures its investors, which benefits not only the debtors, but the US itself.
                              “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by middle earth View Post
                                No mistake, that’s him,very good at lipservicing people. He is planting a time bomb for China.

                                In our city, not a big city, in North East China, price for a square meter is about 10,000.00, a million Yuan can buy a 10 0 square meter flat (floor space, the space you can use is about 70% of that area, with 70 years land lease). What a million Yuan can buy in other parts of the world?

                                Some one said this: 天涯æ¥å§ - 房价 - [置顶]图说:100万人民å¸åœ¨ä¸–ç•Œå„åœ°èƒ½ä¹°åˆ°å• ¥æ*·çš„房å*

                                How long can a Chinese save enough to buy such a lat? Here is someone’s calculation:

                                If she is a hooker (they are categorized as standard upper middle class in China), and with average appearance, she can make 200 Yuan from one client, so she must take 5000 clients to make a million (some of them make 100 Yuan a client). She has to work 7 years, two clients a day, sat. and Sundays holidays included, to save enough to purchase that flat provided she doesn’t smoke, drink or eat, and no venereal disease, no boy friend.

                                In cities like Beijing or Shanghai, people make more, but they must consider if they can afford a 100 square meter flat at 20000Yuan a meter, so a hooker in these cities must be more attractive, and charge more.
                                1 million RMB is like... 4 million New Taiwan dollar, you can't buy jack with that in Taipei. where most servicable apartment suitable for a family of 3 or 4 easily top 10 million. so 4 million would only get you those small single room apartments, with a bathroom and maybe with or without a kitchen.

                                But the price isn't that ridiculas outside of Taipei though. and the average earning of people in Taiwan is still dramatically higher (but the difference in Taiwan cities and cities on the mainland is pretty small, just that there isn't a hugggge drop off in Taiwan between rural and urban areas). still, for a family with double income wanting to buy a semi respectable house in Taipei a 10-15+ year mortage seems quiet normal.
                                Last edited by RollingWave; 16 Mar 10,, 10:51.

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