Sukhoi PAK FA News

[biteasaur]

thanks,pak/fa looks better up closer

pak/fa looks meaner on that shot,the su turned up to fuzzy.nice birds, i still want a full front view of raptor and pak/fa facing the screen.to compare.

[Inst]

I wouldn't be surprised if the XXJ outperformed the first generation PAK FA, but the PAFKA exists and the XXJ is vaporware.

What are the chances the PAK FA will be replaced with stealthier and more powerful variants as Sukhoi gets the funding money? .9? 1?

[highsea]

Another view. It’s the wing line. As you see the inlet is completely under the line and the engine is half above it.

Now draw a line that is inline with the engines, also from the bottom.

At least 50% of that compressor face is visible to the inboard and bottom portions of the inlets, and they are dead straight.

It looks to me like they did fine on the planform alignments, then went completely conventional from there on.

Also, those "wing bays" are dummies. There is no door there. You can see that clearly in Andrey's first hi-res pics. That doesn't mean they are not planned for that purpose, but this plane will never carry weapons, so it's not needed.

[paintgun]

I wouldn't be surprised if the XXJ outperformed the first generation PAK FA, but the PAFKA exists and the XXJ is vaporware.

What are the chances the PAK FA will be replaced with stealthier and more powerful variants as Sukhoi gets the funding money? .9? 1?

there is very scarce information about J-XX, so it will be very hard to speculate on it, the mighty AUSAirpower place it below Pak-fa however (they even rate Pak-fa better than F-22! and F-35 got all the hate they ever had on it)
the PLA seems pretty confident on J-XX development, rumour has it that J-XX will have test flight in 2011-2012

2015 is both the estimated production status for Pak-fa and J-XX, if everything goes well for them

I think Sukhoi is not as cash strapped as most hyperboles out there describing it, Sukhoi took over Pak-fa development from Mig because they had better financial stature, and looking at the work done on Pak-fa, considerably money must have been put on it, so i think the fund is already flowing, not to mention all the sales they made

Will Pak-fa be refined further, I put my bet on the number 1 for probability

[highsea]

Paintgun, you haven't been around here long enough to know what we think of Carlo Kopp. He has one agenda, and one agenda only.

Best to take him with a very large grain of your favorite condiment.

[paintgun]

I will take you recommendation highly Sir

Seen him and his articles joked around by people quite often here and there, a large grain of salt indeed

[citanon]

2015 is both the estimated production status for Pak-fa and J-XX, if everything goes well for them

Considering the history of recent fighter development programs around the world, this date has a high probability of being complete BS.

[ArtyEngineer]

Considering the history of recent fighter development programs around the world, this date has a high probability of being complete BS.

For reference purposes here is the Chronology of the development of the F22:

1981
Nov USAF identifies need to replace F-15

1986
Aug Lockheed, Boeing and General Dynamics teamed
Oct Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics team selected to compete with Northrop Grumman in Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) Demonstration/Validation

1990
Jan 13 Final assembly of first YF-22 prototype begins
Sep 29 First flight of first YF-22 prototype, piloted by Dave Ferguson
Oct 25 First USAF pilot to fly YF-22 prototype; Maj. Mark D. Shackelford
Oct 30 First flight of second YF-22 prototype, piloted by Tom Morgenfeld
Nov 13 ATF/YF-22 receives Popular Science Award for Aviation and Space
Nov 28 First live missile firing of ATF program; Jon Beesley fires AIM-9
Dec 11 YF-22s fly in formation for first time
Dec 31 Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics submit F-22 proposal to USAF

1991
Jan F-22 program begins relocation to Marietta, Georgia; Gulf War begins
Apr 23 Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics F-22 team wins Advanced Tactical Fighter contract
Aug 2 Engineering and Manufacturing Development contract awarded

1992
June 30 Critical Design Review (CDR) for F119 EMD test engine

1993
Mar 1 Lockheed purchases General Dynamics Fort Worth Division
Apr 30 Air vehicle Preliminary Design Review
Dec 8 Boeing manufactures first part of first F-22

1994
Feb 10 F-22 procurement reduced from 648 to 422

1995
Feb 24 Air vehicle CDR completed
Mar 15 Lockheed and Martin Marietta merge
June 2 Assembly of first F-22 mid-body begins in Fort Worth
Oct 4 Assembly of first F-22 aft section and wings begins at Boeing
Nov 2 Assembly of first F-22 integrated forebody begins in Marietta

1996
Jan 17 Boeing begins assembly of first shipset of wings
Aug 29 LMTAS commemorates completion of first mid-fuselage
Oct 8 First two flight test F119 engines delivered
Oct 16 Aft fuselage for first F-22 arrives at Marietta from Boeing
Oct 16 Fuselage mate started on first F-22
Nov 9 Wings for first F-22 arrive at Marietta from Boeing
Dec Electrical power applied to F-22 for first time

1997
Mar 6 First F-22 (Aircraft 4001) moved to Hush House
Apr 9 F-22 Raptor rollout ceremony at Marietta
Aug 16 Low-speed taxi test completed
Sep 5 High-speed taxi test completed
Sep 7 First flight of F-22 Raptor, piloted by Paul Metz
Sep 14 Second flight of F-22, piloted by John Beesley
Nov 11 Popular Science designates F-22 as one of 100 Best of What’s New for 1997

1998
Feb 5 F-22 transported to Edwards AFB for flight test
Mar 31 YF-22 placed in the Air Force Museum at Dayton, Ohio
May 17 Formal flight testing at Edwards AFB begins
June 29 First flight of second F-22 (Aircraft 4002) at Marietta
July 30 First in-flight refueling of Aircraft 4001
Aug 26 Aircraft 4002 flies nonstop to Edwards AFB, piloted by Lt. Col. Steve Rainey
Oct 10 First flight at supersonic speed of Aircraft 4001
Nov 12 Avionics software manager final Block 2 CDR
Nov 23 First Block 1 integrated production software released to Flying Test Bed (FTB)
Nov 23 Lockheed Martin achieves congressionally mandated 183-flight-hour mark

1999
Mar 11 Boeing begins testing first avionics package aboard FTB
Apr 5 Tom Burbage leaves F-22 Team Program Office to become President of LMAS
Apr 26 Bob Rearden becomes LMAS Vice President and F-22 Team Program Office General Manager
Apr 29 Raptor 4002 flies first time with both main and side weapons bay doors open
May 4 Raptor 4002 records program’s 100th flight-test sortie
July 21 Raptor 4001 demonstrates supercruise for first time (Mach 1.5 approximately 1,110 mph for 3 minutes without the use of afterburners)
Aug 25 Raptor 4002 conducts 60-degree high angle of attack
Nov 23 F-22 KC-10 refueling qualification testing completed
Dec 21 500th flight-test hour accomplished

2000
Mar 6 First flight of third F-22 (Aircraft 4003) at Marietta, piloted by Chuck Killberg
Mar 15 Aircraft 4003 flies nonstop to Edwards AFB, piloted by Lt. Col. Bill Craig
July 25 First AIM-9 launch from Aircraft 4002, piloted by Chuck Killberg
Oct 24 First Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) launch from Aircraft 4002, piloted by Lt. Col. “Doc” Nelson
Oct 31 Pratt & Whitney successfully completed 2, 150 TACx, 1/2 full hot section life
Nov 2 Raptor 4001 ferried from Edwards AFB to Wright-Patterson AFB to undergo live-fire testing
Nov 7 Successfully completed Air Vehicle Final Production Readiness Review
Nov 15 First flight of Aircraft 4004, the first avionics Raptor, piloted by Bret Luedke

2001
Jan 5 First flight Raptor 4005 at Marietta, piloted by Randy Neville
Jan 30 Raptor 4004, the first avionics aircraft, ferried to Edwards AFB
Feb 5 First flight of Raptor 4006 at Marietta, piloted by Al Norman
Mar 11 Raptor 4005 ferried to Edwards AF
Apr 17 F-22 successfully launched an AIM-9 missile while rolling at 60 degrees per second
Apr 18 F-22 Program reached 1,000th flight-test hour
May 17 Raptor 4003 successfully flew at maximum Mach
May 18 Raptor 4006 ferried to Edwards AFB; full afterburners were used for the first time on takeoff
June 13 F-22 becomes first tactical fighter to successfully launch an AIM-9 missile while rolling at 100 degrees per second
Aug 15 Defense Acquisition Board (DAB) unanimously recommended to proceed with F-22 Low-Rate Initial Production
Aug 22 Live-fire test on Raptor 4001 was conducted at Wright-Patterson AFB
Aug 23 Completes wing live-fire test
Sep 19 Lot 1 contract awarded $2.1B
Sep 21 First guided AMRAAM launch
Sep 26 First fit check of JDAM with 600-gallon fuel tank on pylon
Oct 15 Raptor 4007 first flight
Oct 24 DAE authorizes Lot 2 contract
Nov 14 Avionics software 3.0FT2.3 loaded first time
Nov 30 Last PRTVII mid-fuselage shipped to Marietta

2002
Jan 5 Raptor 4007 ferried to Edwards AFB
Jan 31 Lot 2 production contract authorized
Feb 1 First time a Raptor pulls 9 gs
Feb 8 Raptor 4008 first flight
Mar 14 Successful AIM-9 missile shot at 5,000 ft, Mach 0.9
1st Qtr Conducted successful RCS test on Raptor 4002
Mar 27 EMD EAC submitted to SPO
Apr 5 DD250 completed on last EMD aircraft Raptor 4009
May 10 F-22 SPO directorship changes * Brig. Gen. Shackelford replaces Brig. Gen. Jabour
May 17 First lifetime fatigue test objectives completed
May 21 Arresting gear system test successful
May 28 Raptor 4004 ferries to Eglin AFB
May 30 Raptor 4004 enters climatic testing one day ahead of schedule
June 7 Raptor flight test completes 2,000 hours
June 11 Raptor 4009 completes dedicated logistics test and evaluation
July 26 Air combat simulation conducts first test readiness
Aug 2 First F-22 supersonic missile launch, AIM-9 at Mach 1.1
Aug 16 Successfully certified Block 3.1.1.0 software
Aug 21 First supersonic separation of AMRAAM, Mach 1.19
Aug 27 Generals Pearson and Shackelford approve avionics test replan
Sep 17 Raptor designation changed from F-22 to F-22, highlighting multimission capability
Sep 19 Conducted small diameter bomb fit check
Sep 28 Raptor 4003 completes three test sorties in one day
Oct 1 F-22 receives Aviation Quality Award for Aviation Week
Oct 12 First flight Raptor 4010 (first production aircraft)
Oct 23 DD250 of first production aircraft * Aircraft 4010
Oct 25 Stand-up of first F-22 Fighter Squadron at Tyndall AFB
Oct 30 Raptor 4003 completes first AIM-9 supersonic separation launch
Nov 5 First guided supersonic missile launch of AIM-120 AMRAAM (35K ft)
Nov 18 New F-22 POE and F-22 Program Director announced * Brig. Gen. Richard Lewis and Brig. Gen. Select Thomas J. Owen
Nov 26 DD250 of Aircraft 4011
Dec 19 First countermeasure flare flight test
Dec 28 First live-fire ground test from the Raptor
Dec 30 First flight of Raptor 4009

2003
Jan 17 DD250 and delivery of Raptor 4012
Jan 17 First flight by operational pilot * Lt. Col. “Logger” Rose
Mar 4 First DIOT&E Raptor delivered to Edwards AFB
Apr 29 Raptor 4014 completes first flight and lands Code One
May 12 Raptor 4013 ferries to Nellis AFB
May 22 Raptor 4014 completes DD250
June 30 Raptor 4016 delivered to the USAF
July 8 Secretary of the USAF James Roche visits Marietta facility
Aug 21 Raptor 4017 delivered to USAF
Aug 29 Seven Raptors in the sky at the same time
Sep 1 CTF breaks 4,000 flight hours
Sep 22 First rolling high g AIM-9 shot from Raptor 4003
Sep 24 First flight Raptor 4019
Sep 26 Raptor 4018 DD250 and 3 hours later delivered to Tyndall AFB
Oct 10 Acceptance ceremony at Tyndall AFB for Raptor 4018

This info from: F-22 Raptor Team Web Site: About Us - F-22 Chronology

Bottom line, the route from first prototype to an in service aircraft is long and convoluted!!!! Best of luck to the Russian Aviation industry, they are going to need it.

Regards

Arty

[surfgun]

Now that is a time-line!

[zraver]

Highsea, did you ever pull up the link I posted showing the rivet treatment?

[ArtyEngineer]

Now that is a time-line!

It most certainly is!!!! Key dates to really focus on are:

YF22 first flight 29th Seotember 1990,

First flight of an EMD (Engineering Manufacturing Development) Aircraft 7th September 1997.

Last EMD (of which there were 9) Aircraft first flight 5th April 2002.

First Production Aircraft first flight 12 October 2002.

So 12 years from Prototype first flight to a Production representative Aircraft. And these aircraft went to the Test and Evaluation guys. Not sure when IOC was established. Anyone who thinks that you can get an Aircraft as complex as the PAK FA from Prototype to IOC in 5 years or less is quite frankly smoking crack!!!!!

I have personal experience with taking a much less complex piece of equipment from prototype to in service and you would not believe the complexities and hurdles of an EMD program, especially when you are push the boundaries of new concepts and technologies!!!!

Regards

Arty

[paintgun]

So 12 years from Prototype first flight to a Production representative Aircraft. And these aircraft went to the Test and Evaluation guys. Not sure when IOC was established. Anyone who thinks that you can get an Aircraft as complex as the PAK FA from Prototype to IOC in 5 years or less is quite frankly smoking crack!!!!!

Emperor Putin himself stated so, he even wants it earlier on 2013

I agree that 2015 is highly optimistic

[citanon]

Emperor Putin himself stated so, he even wants it earlier on 2013

I agree that 2015 is highly optimistic

Not to mention that this airplane is no where near finished. Just look at the rivets picture that Zraver linked to. The stealth treatment is obviously incomplete. The wing pods for the short range AAMs appear to be mockups. No clue whether the central weapon bays work. The production engines have not been fitted. The radome is probably a mockup. This looks like a very early marketing plane designed to obtain more investment. It has some ways to go to even reach the YF-22 level where you could measure a RCS and shoot off missiles.

[andrew]

It’s a prototype just to confirm the flying characteristics of the chosen form.
Concerning the rivets, what we see is a naked skin which will be covered with RAM coating at later stages.
Just for comparison:

[ArtyEngineer]

Andrew

Most folks on this board seem to realise that this is just a VERY early concept tech demonstrator pushed into the air early probalbly for political reasons. I really dont think you need to defend such charctaristics as "poor surface finish", "lack of a bubble canopy" etc. Most folks on here realize the realities of Aircraft development. Bottom line this airfrane seems to show a LOT of potential. Give Suhkoi a 7 year development program and it will be someithing special.

Regards

Arty