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  • #61
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    That just it, Major. The Chinese can show you the paperwork of whom they sold their stuff to. None of them are terror orgs. By international standards, however, the Chinese are obligated to keep track of where their stuff goes after they reached their initial clients. They don't. However, this is not a legal obligation.
    Sir,
    That still does not change the fact that the Chinese are arming terrorists. If the PA hands over a Chinese grenade to a Taliban fcker that blows a baby here or anywhere else and if this business is sustained then the paperwork notwithstanding, China supports terror. And in anycase I was not debating over legalities on terrorism with anybody. The case in hand is that you and I know fully well that China tried
    (multiple times, and one unsuccessfully) to stop a terrorist organization from getting banned and if a fellow wabber, in the know of things claims otherwise, I would cry ostreich.
    sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      No Major, the Chinese are NOT violating 1267 and 1373. In order for the Chinese to violate them, the UNSC MUST declare JuD to be a terror group and fall under 1267 and 1373 and since China has vetoed that action, then 1267 and 1373 DOES NOT APPLY. That is the legality of it.
      Sir,

      It still remains a violation, even before the banning of the JuD.
      Al-Qaida and the Taliban (wherever located)
      Al-Qaida;
      Osama bin Laden;
      Taliban;
      Other individuals, groups, undertakings and entities associated with them
      In addition, the obligation extends to any funds derived from property owned or controlled by persons acting on behalf of, or at the direction of, these designated persons or entities.
      And JuD was wearing Lashkar's diapers.
      ......Bottom line, Major, JuD was not a terror org because Pakistan lobbied the hell out of the Chinese. After that, it is geopolitics, as simple as that.
      The Paks are the one who created the JuD. Its immaterial why they lobbied for the or against them. But its material to note that the US didn't buy their crap, the Chinese did.
      sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

      Comment


      • #63
        Major, when talking about the UN, only legalities are a concern. Everything else is platitude for the birds on how the world is unfair. You've got one UNSG (Annan) who accused the US of committing a crime when he had no legal authority to state so and that same UNSG vetoed the last chance to stop the Rwandan genocide. That same Annan is taken to be the Holly Ghost of the US is a criminal gang while 800,000 human beings were litterally butchered by machete to be croc and worm food.

        You're using outside rules to impose a morality on the UNSC. Not only does that not apply but morality is the last thing you should use when it comes to the UNSC. It doesn't exist.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          Sir,

          It still remains a violation, even before the banning of the JuD.

          And JuD was wearing Lashkar's diapers.
          And the UNSC MUST DECLARE THEM to be wearing diapers.

          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          The Paks are the one who created the JuD. Its immaterial why they lobbied for the or against them. But its material to note that the US didn't buy their crap, the Chinese did.
          So? How is that different from Hezbollah?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            And the UNSC MUST DECLARE THEM to be wearing diapers.
            Sir,

            The Lashkar has already been declared, JuD fills the same rank and funds, that is for anyones take.
            So? How is that different from Hezbollah?
            Yes, and today the Hezbollah is the biggest provider of social services in Lebanon, running schools, hospitals, social networks and agricultural services, while retaining their weapons. Heck, even the The Lebanese parliament overwhelmingly approved a national unity government that allows Hezbollah to keep its weapons, something that the Pak Parliament should have done, if they wanted to dish out legal credibility to the Lashkar.
            sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

            Comment


            • #66
              The argument boils down to this Is china deliberately using these organization to harm India or Is it just throwing bones at pak? IMV China has no interest in these organizations or their activities in India....rather it looks at them with a pakistani prism. And above all what will a UN resolution achieve anyway if pak is just going to shove these organizations underground?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                The Lashkar has already been declared, JuD fills the same rank and funds, that is for anyones take.
                That only makes it legal for anyone taking them on but it does not make it illegal for anyone supporting them. Do you see that blurred line, Major? India can well choose to go after JuD but it does NOT obligate anyone else to do so since they can declare that JuD is NOT a terror org ... and Pakistan and China have.

                If you want to force everyone on the same page, you need a new UNSC Resolution which is exactly what all the past JuD resolutions attempted to do.

                Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                Yes, and today the Hezbollah is the biggest provider of social services in Lebanon, running schools, hospitals, social networks and agricultural services, while retaining their weapons. Heck, even the The Lebanese parliament overwhelmingly approved a national unity government that allows Hezbollah to keep its weapons, something that the Pak Parliament should have done, if they wanted to dish out legal credibility to the Lashkar.
                Again, how is that different? Hezbollah rains rockets on Israeli children and JuD blows up hotel guests.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by pChan View Post
                  The argument boils down to this Is china deliberately using these organization to harm India or Is it just throwing bones at pak? IMV China has no interest in these organizations or their activities in India....rather it looks at them with a pakistani prism.
                  As far as India is concerned, it has got to look at China which has protected these terror organizations in the past where Pakistan has been powerless to do so. China is the concern there, not Pakistan! The Chinese wish to merrily support terror organizations against India under the garb of Pakistan; India doesn't see it that way. Everyone is accountable for their actions, including China.

                  And above all what will a UN resolution achieve anyway if pak is just going to shove these organizations underground?
                  Trying to send them underground is still better than funding and supporting them openly. Anything that'll make it harder and more expensive for Pakistanis to support terror is always good.
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                    Yes, and today the Hezbollah is the biggest provider of social services in Lebanon, running schools, hospitals, social networks and agricultural services, while retaining their weapons. Heck, even the The Lebanese parliament overwhelmingly approved a national unity government that allows Hezbollah to keep its weapons, something that the Pak Parliament should have done, if they wanted to dish out legal credibility to the Lashkar.
                    The same can be said of JUD albeit to a different degree. After all they were all over POK to help the stranded when the earthquake struck. Both organizations are terrorist organizations & trying to distinguish between based on some third party recognition is a slippery slope that will lead to nowhere. Lets face it the bottom line is Lebanon is responsible for hezbollah & pak is responsible for Lakshar. The difference is pak can get away with it.

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                    • #70
                      Then why hasn't India banned Hezbollah?

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Again, how is that different? Hezbollah rains rockets on Israeli children and JuD blows up hotel guests.
                        Hezbollah is a very visible conventional and a political force in Lebanon, who are accountable for their actions. JuD is not! Yes, the day JuD takes over a section of Pakistan across the Indian border and carries out strikes from there, maybe then it could be compared with Hezbollah. As of now, they operate underground within Pakistan and carry out covert terror strikes throughout India. Pakistan + China is a perfect umbrella for these terror groups to operate from.

                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Then why hasn't India banned Hezbollah?
                        They're a political group who hold seats and a veto in the Lebanese parliament.
                        Last edited by Tronic; 14 Dec 09,, 14:50.
                        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          Hezbollah is a very visible conventional and a political force in Lebanon, who are accountable for their actions.
                          Accountable? Has anyone been arrested for raining rockets on children? Have they even acknowledged that they've done wrong?

                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          They're a political group who hold seats and a veto in the Lebanese parliament.
                          Through a force of arms. They hold those seats and their own army because they won the tiny civil war that errupted.

                          That only shows that terror works in Lebanon.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                            As far as India is concerned, it has got to look at China which has protected these terror organizations in the past where Pakistan has been powerless to do so. China is the concern there, not Pakistan! The Chinese wish to merrily support terror organizations against India under the garb of Pakistan; India doesn't see it that way. Everyone is accountable for their actions, including China.
                            Wrong. Pakistan is the only player with the power to stop this madness. The taliban is "outlawed" by the UN but an entire suburb in quetta is teeming with the afghan taliban and the americans could do squat about it with Obama crowing about it NOW. Shifting blame from pak to china just doesn't make sense to me. Sure the chinese are no saints but you are after the wrong target.

                            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                            Trying to send them underground is still better than funding and supporting them openly. Anything that'll make it harder and more expensive for Pakistanis to support terror is always good.
                            BS. 26/11 would have still happened from the "underground".

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                              Hezbollah is a very visible conventional and a political force in Lebanon, who are accountable for their actions. JuD is not!
                              By Israel may I add. They levelled the shia towns. Thats the only fcuking accountability for hezbollah's actions.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                Accountable? Has anyone been arrested for raining rockets on children? Have they even acknowledged that they've done wrong?

                                Through a force of arms. They hold those seats and their own army because they won the tiny civil war that errupted.

                                That only shows that terror works in Lebanon.
                                They've been pounded by Israel in retaliation every now and then. They are a conventional force and a political force that the Israelis can engage. Where is the conventional and political force of JuD which India can engage? Pakistan and China?
                                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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