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Is the American civil war really over??

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  • #61
    Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
    Very good article, I've read through it many times in the past.
    Fascinating how the CSA national colors evolved many times over a relatively short period of time.
    Well it was a new nation and we know from experience that flags get changed and statrs added as new members get onboard.

    The part that has always amused me a bit was the contemporary derisive attitude toward the Southern Cross design by CSA politicians, one of them comparing it to a pair of crossed suspenders.
    I suppose if the South had won they would have come up with a new one.:)

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    • #62
      Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
      Interesting. I read the article and then read the poll associated. I voted yes of course and found that of the 2013 votes, 89% said it was heritage, not a symbol of hate.

      Does anyone here see the flag as a sign of hate?
      Personally, no. However, I'd question the motive to why one would wear it or display it prominently. It carries a lot of baggage with it, and so while I can see some valid motivations for wearing it, there's also a lot of motivations that are less than wholesome. For example, if you're name is Daisy Dukes, I'll approve :))

      You are a go at this station!


      You are a no go at this station! (HT to AR)!
      Last edited by Shek; 16 Nov 09,, 03:07.
      "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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      • #63
        Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
        IMO, we did a better job of nation building with Japan after WWII than the south after the ACW. Disturbing indeed
        Some major differences:

        1. The Japanese emperor admitted defeat and told his people to obey the terms. Jefferson Davis never did so, and most Southern leaders actively resisted reconstruction (even here there's a difference, which is the obedience of the Japanese people to a single authority as compared to the internal strife found even within the CSA).

        2. We maintained a large occupational troop commitment for years in Japan - we didn't do so during Reconstruction.

        3. Japan is a very homogeneous country, and so while we crushed the construct of government in Japan, we didn't upset a large swath of the social order like Reconstruction did.

        Like TH, I don't think that it's a fair comparison. Even a major occupation force for the duration of the Reconstruction era wouldn't have made much of a difference IMO.
        "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Shek View Post
          Like TH, I don't think that it's a fair comparison. Even a major occupation force for the duration of the Reconstruction era wouldn't have made much of a difference IMO.
          Then perhaps compare the north with the south before and after the war.

          American Experience | Reconstruction: The Second Civil War

          Who made out better here? To the victor goes the spoils......

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          • #65
            Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
            Then perhaps compare the north with the south before and after the war.

            American Experience | Reconstruction: The Second Civil War

            Who made out better here? To the victor goes the spoils......
            I see a sectoral shift from farming to manufacturing in the South. Nearly every state saw a gain in its manufacturing. The farming sector got crushed because cotton wasn't as profitable anymore without slave labor. The one state that appears to be the exception is Virginia, which is partly due to having major campaigns fought there for all four years of the Civil War, and also because of Union and Confederate destruction of manufacturing capacity (for example, in Richmond, it was the Confederates that burned down anything of military value). The Shenadoah Valley was destroyed by Sheridan, who remarked that because of his campaign, "A crow would need to carry its ration when it flew over the Valley of Virginia."

            Last edited by Shek; 16 Nov 09,, 03:49.
            "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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            • #66
              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
              If you're so concerned about your beloved "heritage", then why would you fly a 30'x60' mistake?
              Go ask that guy on I-75, he will give you the answer. ;)

              Since you said I could ask you questions, I have one more. What was your initial feeling about finding out your ancestors were Confederate soldiers?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Shek View Post
                Personally, no. However, I'd question the motive to why one would wear it or display it prominently. It carries a lot of baggage with it,
                I never have any problems. What do you mean by baggage?

                and so while I can see some valid motivations for wearing it, there's also a lot of motivations that are less than wholesome.
                It is a shame the white supremacists percieve it for what it is not.

                For example, if you're name is Daisy Dukes, I'll approve :))
                This may come as no surprise, but my wife had one of those bikinis several years back and she looked like a Daisy Duke in it!!:)

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                • #68
                  Shek, that's fashion discrimination at it's best and worst.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                    Well it was a new nation and we know from experience that flags get changed and statrs added as new members get onboard.
                    Well yes, but I was referring more to "the big three" and reasons for their changes.

                    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                    I suppose if the South had won they would have come up with a new one.:)
                    What, and infuriate generations of unborn Confederate heritage groups, are you crazy?? ;)
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Shek View Post
                      I'd question the motive to why one would wear it or display it prominently. It carries a lot of baggage with it, and so while I can see some valid motivations for wearing it, there's also a lot of motivations that are less than wholesome.
                      The entire line of thinking is so much incomprehensible gibberish to people enamored with the Southern Cross.
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        American Experience | Reconstruction: The Second Civil War | PBS

                        Here is the site I got the reconstruction info from. Not bad for PBS.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                          I never have any problems. What do you mean by baggage? It is a shame the white supremacists percieve it for what it is not.
                          You answered your own question.

                          Originally posted by 7thsfsniper
                          This may come as no surprise, but my wife had one of those bikinis several years back and she looked like a Daisy Duke in it!!:)
                          I'd expect nothing less of you ;)
                          "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                            The entire line of thinking is so much incomprehensible gibberish to people enamored with the Southern Cross.
                            I understood it.;)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Julie View Post
                              Since you said I could ask you questions, I have one more. What was your initial feeling about finding out your ancestors were Confederate soldiers?
                              It was hardly a surprise, knowing my whole life quite well that my father's entire family had lived in the South for generations.

                              When Dad started doing his genealogy a year or so ago and had reached the Civil War era of our family, I enthusiastically jumped in and helped with my Net research abilities, something he lacks.

                              It was quite fascinating to know specifics of my ancestors involvement in the War. So, for a few nights, we talked over the phone for hours about this person and that person and occasionally discovered what units they served in.

                              In fact, I was the one that provided the possible answer to a vexing wall that Dad had run into: An antebellum census gave the name of our of our ancestors, but a post-war census made it seem like he'd deliberately changed his name somewhat, but Dad and I couldn't figure out why in the world he'd done that.

                              (Obviously a few unsavory reasons crossed our minds but there was no evidence for or against them).

                              As we went over some of the man's details, Dad mentioned that he'd found the unit he'd served in and gave the unit name.

                              Naturally I Googled it on the spot and was half-reading, half-muttering what I'd found, but I don't think Dad was paying very much attention until I mentioned it was a partisan command. He yelped in surprise "That's IT!"

                              We figured it was possible that due to something that may have happened during operations as a partisan, the man had thought it best to lay low after the war and alter his name.

                              But to answer your question directly: I was proud to know that my family had some manner of history in the War, other than "shoveling shit in Louisiana".

                              But that was about as far as it went. I thought very little to nothing about it after that. It was a "hey cool!" moment and nothing more.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                                I understood it.;)
                                Pretty sure you would. ;) Pretty sure Julie does as well. :)

                                Pretty sure we're all in a very small minority too.
                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                                Comment

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