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Thread: Is the American civil war really over??

  1. #31
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    Dixie Outfitters is a fashion clothing store for the younger generation. No, they probably don't understand the difference in the flags, just that it depicts a southern stature, in which they live in the south, so they see nothing wrong with it.

    The only ones offended would be the ones who DO understand the difference, which would be people, like you.

    I, personally, own nothing with the confederate cross, and I live in deep South Georgia. I know my heritage, and feel I do not have to wear, wave, or depict anything to anybody to prove it.

    I think it ironic, the Confederate flag has been banned at the State and Federal institutions here, however, the items can be still be sold and bought.

  2. #32
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    so if Confederate Flags are ok in states that once belonged to the CSA, are Mexican Flags ok in States that once belonged to Mexico?
    That would be a good question. I read where some Americans were angered at Mexicans waving their Mexican flags here anywhere in the US. Do you think it would depict and "uprising?"

  3. #33
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    For a very small segment, it's not over. You can find a handful of whacko neo-Confederate secessionist websites out there. However, the legacy of it still lives on for some folks. When visiting Gettysburg about six weeks ago with a good friend and his mother, I found it humorous how upset my friend's mother got when seeing the Confederate monuments. She was especially upset when I told her how most of the Army installations in the south are named after Confederate generals. For her family, she was brought up with pride over the fact that her family has voted Republican since 1856.

    In another sense, we aren't necessarily that far removed from the Civil War, even though we're just about 18 months out from the 150th Anniversary of the start of the war. James Longstreet's (trophy) wife died less than 50 years ago, and so in some cases, we're still only 3-4 generations removed from the Civil War itself, and even less from the aftermath of it (Jim Crow, Civil Rights Movement, etc.).

    What is ironic is how quickly many of the Civil War generation were able to put behind their differences. James Longstreet became a Republican after the war and supported Reconstruction (and was vilified by many other Confederate veterans). Grant and Mosby (a Confederate partisan that in the spring of 1864 was probably just minutes away from randomly running into a train that Grant was traveling on to Brandy Station, which would have resulted in the death of Grant) became friends and allies after the war.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  4. #34
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    How the weather affects one's mood

    Well, for about 260 years before 1861 the American South has had its own cultural identity - at least thanks in part to the subtropical climate that permitted large-scale agriculture. The New England Colonies and the Jamestown Colony were separated by hundreds of miles of wilderness. The former had their start as settlements consisting of religious refugees from England, while the latter had its beginnings as a commercial outpost and is the older of the two.

    The temperate climate of New England meant cold winters, so working hard and in a timely manner was essential to the survival of the colonists. The subtropical climate of the South allowed for a more relaxed farming schedule and the large-scale farming that made items such as tobacco and cotton highly profitable commodities. More northerly regions were not as conducive to agriculture, so industry played a more important role.

    My personal theory is that the climate in the Northeastern US and the Southern US played a key role in shaping the collective character of the people living in these regions. At least in the absence of industralization that allows people to overcome the constraints imposed by climate and other natural phenomena, working as closely as possible with natural cycles tends to shape the collective character of a people over time through the formation of personal and social habits.

    As for the subject of Mexicans hoisting and waving their national flag on US soil that once belonged to Mexico, I've seen it brought up several times in the past. The US Southwest and part of the Midwest up to the Colorado River was once part of Mexico, but it was very sparsely populated - except for California, Texas, and small parts of New Mexico and Arizona - and inhabited almost entirely by Native Americans. For one, the Comanche would often go down into northern Mexico to steal cattle. To the Mexicans, the US southwest and lands just beyond that, were considered the "Northern Mystery". Even though the Mexicans did have a presence in the US southwest, the arid desert climate precluded any large-scale colonization.

    If the Mexicans of the 19th century had settled and populated the northern parts of their empire, those regions would probably still be part of Mexico and the geopolitical balance of North America would be different today. At least California would not be a US State. And even if the US did get all the lands north of the Rio Grande, the Western US would have a very strong regional character.
    Last edited by Crocodylus; 15 Nov 09, at 21:45.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    Dixie Outfitters is a fashion clothing store for the younger generation. No, they probably don't understand the difference in the flags, just that it depicts a southern stature, in which they live in the south, so they see nothing wrong with it.
    Indeed. And their website has a nice little revisionist section on "Southern Heritage" and the "real" causes of the Civil War (among other things) that makes me want to just spit in disgust.

    Unfortunately, Dixie Outfitters is emblematic of the purpose for the sale and display of the various Confederate flags these days.

    The days of Southerners actually knowing what their heritage is, is passing away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    The only ones offended would be the ones who DO understand the difference, which would be people, like you.
    The reason why it offends is the blatant hypocrisy inherent to the flying of a flag and giving a pious but nakedly false reason for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    I, personally, own nothing with the confederate cross, and I live in deep South Georgia. I know my heritage, and feel I do not have to wear, wave, or depict anything to anybody to prove it.
    Which puts you in minority of people that understand this is nearly 2010, not 1861....to say nothing of knowing what your heritage truly is and what it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    I think it ironic, the Confederate flag has been banned at the State and Federal institutions here, however, the items can be still be sold and bought.
    What's so ironic about it?

    It hasn't been banned at all, with the exception of flying or displaying it at State and Federal buildings, which makes perfect sense, seeing as how the State and Federal institutions of the Confederacy have been dead for the last 144 years.

    The sole purpose of putting the "Southern Cross" on Southern State flags was a symbol of defiance and hatred toward the North. What a wonderful legacy to preserve!
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #36
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    The sole purpose of putting the "Southern Cross" on Southern State flags was a symbol of defiance and hatred toward the North. What a wonderful legacy to preserve!
    When ones wear the southern cross, whether ignorant about the understanding or not, I tend to think it says, "I live in the South, and proud of it." I've never looked at it as a symbol of "defiance."

    Sorry, I just don't feel the same about it as you. :(

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    When ones wear the southern cross, whether ignorant about the understanding or not, I tend to think it says, "I live in the South, and proud of it." I've never looked at it as a symbol of "defiance."
    Never said that you did.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    James Longstreet's (trophy) wife died less than 50 years ago
    The last-known Union widow, Gertrude Janeway, died in Jan. 2003 in Tennessee. John Janeway joined the Union army in 1864 and was briefly a POW at Andersonville. The couple married in 1927, after waiting three years until Gertrude turned 18. John was 81.

    The person thought to be the last-known Confederate widow, Alberta Martin, was born Dec, 4, 1906, and died at age 97 in Alabama on May 31, 2004. In 1927, at age 21, she married William Jasper Martin, then 81. Martin joined the Confederate army in May 1864. Upon her husband's death, she married his grandson from his first marriage.

    The publicity surrounding Alberta Martin's death prompted relatives of Maudie Celia Hopkins of Arkansas to reveal that the 89-year-old was in fact the last civil war widow. Hopkins married 86-year-old William Cantrell on Feb. 2, 1934, when she was 19. She did so to escape poverty, but kept quiet about the unusual marriage, “I thought people would gossip about it.” Cantrell, who served in the Virginia Infantry, supported her with his Confederate pension of “$25 every two or three months” until his death in 1937. Hopkins has outlived three other husbands.

    Last Civil War Widows — Infoplease.com

    Maudie Celia-Hopkins died in 2008

    Maudie Celia Acklin Hopkins (1914 - 2008) - Find A Grave Memorial

  9. #39
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Never said that you did.
    Beg to differ, your post #35, last paragraph:

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    The sole purpose of putting the "Southern Cross" on Southern State flags was a symbol of defiance and hatred toward the North. What a wonderful legacy to preserve!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    Beg to differ, your post #35, last paragraph:
    Uh, really? You're the one responsible for designing Southern State flags?

    Back in 1956 in the case of Georgia? 1894 in the case of Mississippi?

    YOU designed those flags?

    Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    What a wonderful legacy to preserve!
    That statement was in no way directed at you. It was a continuation of the previous sentance of
    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    The sole purpose of putting the "Southern Cross" on Southern State flags was a symbol of defiance and hatred toward the North.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  11. #41
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    I was referring strictly to the "symbol of defiance" issue as to wearing the clothing, nothing else. What you are speaking of, I haven't a clue.

    But I would like to ask you a question, actually two, but I'll limit it to one. Where are you originally from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodylus View Post
    Well, for about 260 years before 1861 the American South has had its own cultural identity - at least thanks in part to the subtropical climate that permitted large-scale agriculture. The New England Colonies and the Jamestown Colony were separated by hundreds of miles of wilderness. The former had their start as settlements consisting of religious refugees from England, while the latter had its beginnings as a commercial outpost and is the older of the two.

    The temperate climate of New England meant cold winters, so working hard and in a timely manner was essential to the survival of the colonists. The subtropical climate of the South allowed for a more relaxed farming schedule and the large-scale farming that made items such as tobacco and cotton highly profitable commodities. More northerly regions were not as conducive to agriculture, so industry played a more important role.
    I think the settlers of Jamestown would disagree with you about the "relaxed farming schedule" considering that they just about starved to death. I think it's instructive to see what land is used for today, and you see just as much, if not more agriculture in the "North" than you would in the "South." I don't think geographic determinism is a very good explanation for the different cultures that emerged. The nature of the settlers is a much more powerful trail to explore.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    I was referring strictly to the "symbol of defiance" issue as to wearing the clothing, nothing else. What you are speaking of, I haven't a clue.
    And what you're speaking of, I haven't a clue either. So I guess we're even on that score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    But I would like to ask you a question, actually two, but I'll limit it to one. Where are you originally from?
    Ask as many questions as you'd like, I have no problem answering anything you might ask.
    If I prefer not to put it out here in the open, I can always PM my answer to you.

    To answer your question: I was born and raised in the Northwest Suburbs of Chicago until I moved to Southwest Florida just over 11 years ago.

    However, lest you conclude that I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Yankee...

    Both sides of my family come from the Deep South, particularly my maternal grandmother's family and both sides of my father's family.

    My father in particular traced our family lineage back to the Civil War (and beyond) and found that most or all of our male ancestors fought for the South. One in particular serving in a partisan command, much to my surprise.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    "confederate items" is about as vague as you can get. Let's be specific here: I'm referring to this flag, as seen, well...everywhere and on everything, like Flags, car tags, key chains, etc.
    I get irritated at the people that ignorantly fly it upside down.


    The people that I'm talking about, here in Florida, don't have a damn clue about "State pride", "State Standing" or their "heritage".

    They fly the flag..............................
    I wear a small battle flag on the lower vest pocket of my leathers. I have a few others here and there but it is not something I make a big deal over. I make it a point to try to hang around people that are smart enough to know what it is about and the history with it.

    I too am irritated by the stupid fashionistas that wear it as an accessory. I am far more irritated by the Che wearers. Unless of course they know who he is and what he stood for, then I regard them as an enemy.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    And what you're speaking of, I haven't a clue either. So I guess we're even on that score.
    You commented about Dixie Outfitters, and the southern cross being put on the flag being in defiance of the North. I commented that I didn't think the young generation wore them for the purpose of being "defiant," but proud to be a Southerner.

    Where you went with the rest of that I don't know, but my kids wear clothes from Dixie Outfitters, and I do not berate them for doing so. They live in the South, and it is a fashion statement, not a defiance statement.

    I fail to see how a person can be "defiant" in ignorance of what they are wearing simultaneously. With that being said, when you approached that person about the issue, that's why they looked at you dumbfoundedly probably. They had no clue about what you were talking about.

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