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Thread: Quetta, Balochistan

  1. #46
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pak Nationalist View Post
    ^^If anarchy is what i call normalcy then Musharaf's time would be the most normal of all.

    As you yourself accepted above(well, you were still finding excuses).....the attacks on infrastructure in Balochistan have almost come to zero...this is a sign of decrease in violence In my dictionary. Saying otherwise is a lie.

    The reports violence are also far less then they were in 2005-08. People are getting jobs and even joining the army in vast numbers. In a decade it will like any other part of Pakistan.

    As far as Mr Akhter's is concerned, Balochistan National Party won only 5 out out 51 seats in 2008 elections.
    Joining army and getting jobs are not prime indicators. 2 examples; first one, Kashmir; a state with the highest amount of grants and money pumped into it, a state which has its own army regiment (providing that a large chunk of that regiment is made up of Kashmiri Hindus and Sikhs, there is a considerate number of Kashmiri Muslims also who have bagged gallantry awards and therefore made an identity in the army for their people), and it is a state where the insurgency still carries on. Second example, Indian Punjab, once one of the most prosperous states of India, has the largest ratio of armymen compared to any other community (Punjabi Sikhs, which make up a meager 2% of India's population make up 20% of India's army), yet it saw one of the most brutal secessionist movements take place, and saw 7 years of army rule. A handful of Balochi youths, joining the army for the lack of better opportunities, is no indicator of the wider Baloch secessionist movement.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pak Nationalist View Post
    As you yourself accepted above(well, you were still finding excuses).....the attacks on infrastructure in Balochistan have almost come to zero...this is a sign of decrease in violence In my dictionary. Saying otherwise is a lie.

    The reports violence are also far less then they were in 2005-08.
    Please learn how to read and comprehend English, or just dont bother trying to debate here. Im not interested in your trolling. Thanks.

    People are getting jobs and even joining the army in vast numbers.
    Really. And? Pakistan's economy is in complete shambles and is wholly dependant on the billions in foreign aid it receives from various donors and aid agencies. And the infrastructure and economic situation in Baluchistan is in a far more serious state of poverty than in Pakistan's other three provinces. Dont expect anyone here to take your word for it that “people are getting jobs” (now). S-2 has already addressed you on the issue of "The largest-ever batch of 4,000 Baloch recruits passed out on Friday, showing a growing interest among youths of the troubled province to join the Pakistan army." (DAWN 30 Oct. 2010). A figure which you earlier had deliberately tried to mislead him and others into thinking was “fourteen thousand Balochs”.

    Unless you have something credible or sensible to say, dont bother trying.

  3. #48
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    Either the debate here will return to a civil tone by all members, or it won't continue at all.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1980s View Post
    Please learn how to read and comprehend English, or just dont bother trying to debate here. Im not interested in your trolling. Thanks.
    Huh. You grew grouchy sooner then i expected. I just reminded you what you yourself said a few posts back.

    And the infrastructure and economic situation in Baluchistan is in a far more serious state of poverty than in Pakistan's other three provinces.
    The main reason of this is the sparse population and huge area, however negligence in the past is also a factor.

    Don't expect anyone here to take your word for it that “people are getting jobs” (now).
    This was just the beginning. Better late then never. Let some time pass and you'll see the results.


    S-2 has already addressed you on the issue of "The largest-ever batch of 4,000 Baloch recruits passed out on Friday, showing a growing interest among youths of the troubled province to join the Pakistan army." (DAWN 30 Oct. 2010). A figure which you earlier had deliberately tried to mislead him and others into thinking was “fourteen thousand Balochs”.
    And now I am explaining what i said few posts back. "Please learn how to read forums, or just dont bother trying to debate here. Im not interested in your trolling. Thanks."

    Still feeling dizzy....scroll back and read posts #38 and #39 with open eyes and well ventilated mind and i infer you wont have any trouble in getting your answers.

    Unless you have something credible or sensible to say, dont bother trying.
    As far as i can see, i am the only on who is giving evidence of everything here, while you are just firing in the air and taking support of some separatist's views.

    Peace
    Last edited by Pak Nationalist; 27 Nov 10, at 13:01.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Either the debate here will return to a civil tone by all members, or it won't continue at all.
    You've got a very admirable foresight.

  6. #51
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    From todays edition of a Pakistani newspaper:

    Alarming Balochistan situation
    Published: November 27, 2010

    Inayatullah Muhammad Akhtar Mengal, a former Chief Minister of Balochistan and presently President of the Balochistan National Party, has recently written two articles in a local English daily pointing out that the “Balochi youth and politicians” are being “systematically” eliminated by the Islamabad “powerful establishment.”

    He has described Balochistan as Pakistan’s Darfur and cited names of politicians, journalists and students, who were victims of the extrajudicial killings. He has referred to a statement of Amnesty International’s Asia-Pacific Director, viz: “Baloch political leaders and activists are clearly being targeted and government must do much more to end this alarming trend.” Mr Mengal concludes one of the articles by saying that Islamabad’s brutalities and “Hitler-like policies” against the Balochis “will not deter us from continuing our struggle.”

    In an earlier article titled Balochistan Endless Despair, Akhtar Mengal recalled the military operation against the people of Dera Bugti and Kohlu launched in December 2005, by General (retd) Musharraf, resulting “in loss of life, property, displacement and killing of veteran Baloch leaders like Nawab Akhtar Khan Bugti and Mir Balaach Marri.” According to him, 21 bullet-riddled bodies of missing persons, including two lawyers, had been found in different areas, as well as Quetta, Mastung and Khuzdar, during the period July to October 2010. He is of the view that the Baloch people “have lost trust and hope that Pakistan’s discriminatory system will provide them any justice or discourage perpetrators of crimes against humanity.” He has also expressed his unhappiness at the civilised international community’s silence about the brutal killings of the Baloch people by the military and intelligence agencies.

    The latest shocking incident relating to the bullet-riddled bodies of six Baloch students found in different parts of the province has added fuel to the fire. The matter was raised in the Senate by Dr Abdul Malik of the National Party and Senator Hasil Khan Bizenjo. Senator Mohabat Khan Marri of PML-Q also referred to the cold-blooded murder of five Punjabis. “A civil war-like situation prevailed in the province,” he observed. The Chairman Senate expressed serious concern about the security situation in Balochistan and asked the government to submit a report to the Upper House.

    Sanaullah Baloch, another Balochi leader, who left the Senate as a mark of protest, has in a recent article highlighted the plight of the people of Balochistan pointing out their deprivation because of the denial of their rights and benefits by Islamabad regarding the use of natural resources. He has warned that the copper-gold project in Reko Diq is bound to intensify the Baloch-Islamabad conflict.

    There is yet another dimension of the complexities in Balochistan that needs to be addressed at the highest level. This relates to the news emanating from a Pentagon report that a US Office of Defence Representative and Coalition is being established in Quetta. According to this report, the arrangement has been approved by the Pakistan army. This, read with the news that the Pakistan government has agreed to the extension of CIA operations in Balochistan, is a matter of serious concern for us. There was another Washington Post report that Islamabad had been asked to concur in the extension of drone attacks beyond FATA (including Balochistan). Good that our government has refused this demand. Hopefully, it will remain firm in this behalf.

    The way the state of Pakistan continues to neglect the rapidly deteriorating situation in Balochistan, letting the province to slip out of control because of the escalating activities of a large number of alienated Balochis, is indeed bewildering. When the opposition raised the issue last year, the Prime Minister came up with a high sounding proposal titled Aghaz-e-Haqooq-e-Balochistan resolving to concede the rights of the people of the province. Little is known of the progress made under this scheme. The fact that alienation has increased with the passage of time indicates that the government is not serious about doing anything meaningful to grapple with the issues involved.

    How grave the situation is, may be gauged from the rapidly rising wave of activities of the alienated separatist Baloch organisations. Some of these are:

    One, Balochistan Liberation Army led by Hyrbiar Marri, son of Khair Bakhsh Marri, based in London (known for its alleged links with India and its anti-Punjabi operations).

    Two, Balochistan Republican Army (BRA) led by Brahmdagh Bugti, grandson of late Akbar Bugti.

    Three, Baloch Liberation United Front. (It is reported to have been involved in killing four Punjabi businessmen.)

    Four, Balochistan Liberation Front led by Dr Allah Nazar Baloch (mainly operates in Makran and central Balochistan).

    Five, Lashkar-i-Balochistan’s National Party (operates mostly in the Khazdar area - the murdered Halub Jalib Baloch was linked to it).

    Six, Baloch Musalla Dafa Tanzeem headed by Ata-ur-Rehman Mengal, son of ex-State Minister Naseer Mengal.

    If left to the government, the simmering separatist movements in this resource-rich part of Pakistan will go on gathering momentum. The situation cannot be allowed to be left to the intelligence agencies to carry out “missing persons operations” and other entities such as paramilitary outfits, as well as an incompetent provincial government and an indifferent federal administration.

    Papering over deeply entrenched problems by offering an apology for past excesses and announcing grants and concessions is like sprinkling water over a raging fire.

    It is time the media turns its attention to the worsening situation in Pakistan’s largest province, and sensitises the government and the opposition to the urgency of doing something substantial to address the challenge facing the country. It is essential for the political opposition to raise this burning issue in the National Assembly and the Senate, and insist on the appointment of a National Commission on Balochistan.

    This commission may well be headed by the Leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly and should consist of senior leaders of all the major political parties, along with three or four Baloch MNAs and Senators. Mr Sanaullah Baloch may also be included as a member. A knowledgeable and competent ex-Chief Secretary of Balochistan may act as Secretary of the commission. The commission should meet all major Balochi leaders and make special efforts to hold discussions with heads of dissident and alienated groups. It should be tasked to make recommendations within six weeks.

    The PML-N, MQM and JUI should play a leading role in ensuring the establishment of the proposed commission as early as possible. Already it is much too late.

    The writer is a political and international relations analyst.

  7. #52
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    @ tronic:
    Kashmir is a very different story, there the people are fighting for a power which they consider is alien to them, and according to them it is something like: "A fight of liberation from the clutches of the Hindus" and India can't ever do anything about it.

    As far as Sikhs are concerned, they are a strange nation which devotedly fights for anyone.(please don't take as an offense) I say this by keeping in mind the Indian war of Independence in 1857, which failed probably because almost the whole british raj was in revolt accept Sikh soldiers.
    Last edited by Pak Nationalist; 28 Nov 10, at 07:22.

  8. #53
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    Lets take a look at the Iranian side of the border.

    Although not much facts come out of that region because of censorship

    Nationalism and Rebellion in West Balochistan

    The Baloch national question has been a source of simmering tensions for decades. Iran’s approximately one to four million-strong Baloch community inhabits the southeastern province of Sistan-Balochistan [2]. This desolate and underdeveloped region is one of Iran’s poorest provinces. Unlike most Iranians, the Baloch are predominantly Sunni Muslims. Violent crackdowns and repression by security services in the economically backward province have engendered deep-seated animosity toward the Shiite Islamist regime among the fiercely independent and proud Baloch people.



    Iranian Baloch identify with their kin in neighboring Pakistan’s southwestern province of Balochistan—home to the region’s largest Baloch population at approximately four to eight million—and the smaller Baloch community in southern Afghanistan. The Pakistani Baloch are engaged in their own long-running struggle for greater rights and independence through a violent insurgency against Islamabad. The sum of these circumstances imbues the Baloch national consciousness with a sense of historic persecution at the hands of imperial powers that left the Baloch nation divided and without a state of its own. Baloch nationalists see the unification of their people in an independent “Greater Balochistan” as a historical right. The plight of Iranian Balochistan, referred to as “West Balochistan” by Baloch nationalists, is a pillar of the wider Baloch nationalist cause [3].



    Despite a lack of evidence, Tehran accuses Jondallah of serving as an affiliate of both al-Qaeda and the Taliban, claims the group emphatically denies (see Terrorism Monitor, June 29, 2006). Jondallah does, however, rely on religious discourse to highlight its grievances against the Shiite Islamist regime. This most likely represents an effort to highlight the Iranian Baloch position as an oppressed ethnic and sectarian minority within the Shiite Islamist clerical regime. Nevertheless, there are no indications that the group has ties to radical Sunni Islamists. Iran also links Jondallah to other Iranian opposition groups—including the radical People’s Mujahideen of Iran (PMOI), more commonly referred to as the Mojahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), and the affiliated National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI)—in an effort to tarnish its reputation. Tehran also accuses Jondallah of harboring secessionist aspirations. Abdulmalak Rigi has stated on numerous occasions that his group’s goal is not secession, but the achievement of equal rights for his people in a reformed Iran. Essentially, Jondallah frames its campaign as a war of self-defense. At the same time, Rigi has gone so far as to declare himself an Iranian and Iran as his motherland (roozonline.com, May 10, 2006). This is a position held by other Iranian Baloch dissident groups advocating on behalf of greater Baloch rights. Organizations such as the Balochistan United Front and the Balochistan National Movement coordinate closely with other ethnic and sectarian-minded opposition groups agitating for greater rights and representation in Iran, including the Congress of Nationalities for a Federal Iran [4].



    Iranian authorities often describe the group as Pakistani-based in an apparent effort to implicate outside forces in the insurgency, especially the United States. Iran also occasionally accuses Pakistan of turning a blind eye to Jondallah activities, despite a strong record of Iranian and Pakistani cooperation in suppressing Baloch nationalism on both sides of the border. Iran also suggests Jondallah is a creation of the CIA, an allegation strongly denied by Rigi himself. Iran believes that the United States and other hostile forces are providing moral, material and financial support to ethnic and sectarian-based secessionist movements—including insurgent and terrorist organizations—to undermine the Islamic Republic. Tehran is convinced that any potential U.S. attack against Iran stemming from tensions over its nuclear program or alleged support for insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan will include a campaign to destabilize the Islamic Republic from within. Groups such as Jondallah would figure prominently in such a strategy (see Terrorism Monitor, August 2, 2007).



    There is no concrete evidence that Jondallah maintains a formal operational base in Pakistan. The difficult terrain that characterizes the Iranian-Pakistani border region is, however, a major crossroads for drug and arms smuggling between locally-based gangs. The porous border also facilitates links between Baloch families and tribes on both sides of the border. In a testament to the extent of Iranian and Pakistani Baloch links, a controversial proposal by Islamabad to construct a wall along the border inspired vocal protests from Pakistani Baloch leaders who labeled the initiative the “anti-Baloch wall” (The News International [Karachi], May 28, 2007). Given this background, it is likely that Jondallah maintains contacts over the border in Pakistan, possibly with Baloch insurgent groups operating there, such as the Baloch Liberation Army (BLA). There is no evidence, however, of formal operational links between the two groups, as both appear committed to furthering their respective causes separately within the Iranian and Pakistani contexts.



    The recent assassination of two-time Pakistani Prime Minister and opposition leader Benazir Bhutto raises questions about the trajectory of the Baloch insurgency in Pakistan and—by extension—Iran. As a center of Baloch nationalism, events in Pakistani Balochistan have a profound impact on the Baloch cause in Iran. In an effort to win support in Pakistani Balochistan for her campaign to oust incumbent President Pervez Musharraf, Bhutto promised that her Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) would implement a general amnesty for Baloch prisoners and rebels and immediately enter into negotiations with local leaders to help settle the conflict. She also criticized Islamabad’s heavy-handed approach in dealing with the Baloch insurgency, accusing Musharraf of exacerbating regional tensions (Dawn [Karachi], December 21, 2007); her assassination was strongly condemned by Baloch activists. Ironically, tensions between Pakistani Baloch and the state during her father Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto’s tenure as prime minister in the mid-1970s were high. The senior Bhutto used brutal tactics—as well as direct material and military support from the Shah of Iran that included helicopter gunships and armored vehicles—to quell the armed Baloch uprising [5]. The history of Iranian-Pakistani cooperation in jointly repressing Baloch nationalism—a trend both countries see as a potential threat to their respective territorial integrity and stability—suggests that Iranian accusations of Islamabad’s support for Jondallah in Iran are unfounded.



    Bhutto’s assassination is not likely have a major impact on the situation in Iranian Balochistan, at least not directly. Despite expressions of solidarity and what is most likely limited contact, ethnic Baloch rebels in Iran and Pakistan will continue to devote their efforts to pursuing local agendas, essentially focusing on furthering the Baloch cause in Iran and Pakistan, respectively. Although Bhutto’s amnesty proposal may have set an interesting precedent for relations between Tehran and Iranian Balochistan had she lived to implement it, it is unlikely that Islamabad will pursue a similar course of action in the foreseeable future.



    Conclusion



    The simmering tensions and violence in Iranian Balochistan will continue to characterize Tehran’s interface with its Baloch minority. The social, political and economic grievances of the Iranian Baloch will remain a source of resentment toward the clerical regime until Tehran commits to integrating minorities into the fabric of society. Despite Iranian claims, there is no conclusive evidence that the United States is providing material support to Jondallah. It is likely, however, that the group calculates its activities and operations to correspond with periods of tension between the United States and Iran. This enables Jondallah to maximize the effect of its campaign. At the same time, Iran does have cause for concern, as the United States could consider the possibility of supporting active insurgencies as a means to pressure Iran during any potential conflict.

    ALSO:

    Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34479

  9. #54
    Contributor 1980s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pak Nationalist View Post
    Lets take a look at the Iranian side of the border
    If you’re looking to troll then its not going to work. The plight of Baluch people in Iran is appalling, yet still isnt nearly anywhere as bad as that of Baluchis in Pakistan. And also to put a dead-weight on your trolling, Iranian people are not under any denial that Baluchis are a separate race and culture from us. They do not belong to Iran, and should be given a choice whether they want to remain with Iran or not. That is my personal position on Baluch in Iran, and is a position shared by many others from our country. We are well aware of our history that the British, in collaboration with the Qajars after some persuasion, plotted to invade Baluchestan and divide the territory between Iran and British India, which subsequently took place towards the end of the 19th century. Prior to that various Iranian dynasties had only exercised nominal suzerainty over some of the territories that are inhabited by the Baluch tribes. Iranian rulers until then had never cared to control Baluchestan or pay any attention to that region. That only changed slightly with the Qajar annexation of Baluch territory, and then more permanently after Reza Shah deposed the Qajars in 1925 and implemented his policy of modernisation and centralisation of the Iranian state.

    Since Reza Shah’s time, the Iranian state has exercised full sovereignty over its Baluch territories. In other words, only from the 1920’s onwards have Baluchis been forcibly incorporated into more than just the Iranian polity. They’ve essentially been forced to become Iranian too. The Islamic Republic continued with this policy after the revolution Naturally, the Baluch have rebelled when and where they could.

    Now since Iranian Baluchestan has absolutely nothing to do with the war in Afghanistan, which is why this topic was started given Quetta’s role in it, you wont need to troll here anymore, because i certainly am not phased by it, and will not be rushing to defend the discriminatory policies and state repression of Baluch people in Iran by successive Iranian states with lies to the contrary. No. I admit and condemn what Iran’s rulers have done and continue to do there.

  10. #55
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    Story is almost the same on our side of the border.
    Jinnah the founder of Pakistan was a great celebrity among Baloch leaders and people of Balochistan. Even the separatists respect him till this day.
    It was because of this friend ship that when Jinnah was near death because of Tuberculosis. he was invited to Ziarat to live his last days by khan of Kalat.

    YouTube - JINNAH AND BALOCHISTAN

    Common people of Pakistan are always of the opinion that the Balochs should be treated like they were in Jinnah's time. The problems that we are facing today are mainly because of the conflicts between Baloch tribal leaders and later Pakistani leaders(most of whom were dictators).

    And the conflict is also being greatly exploited by enemies of Pakistan.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pak Nationalist View Post
    And the conflict is also being greatly exploited by enemies of Pakistan.
    And who exactly are these enemies?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    And who exactly are these enemies?
    The spooks....
    Why is Manmohan Singh under fire in India? Many Indians, including the Opposition, are not happy about the reference to Balochistan in the joint statement released at Sharm-El-Shaikh, Egypt, after the meeting between Dr. Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani on the sidelines of the Non-Aligned summit. Some feel Dr. Singh stabbed them in the back by accepting the claim that India interferes in Balochistan. There are reports that Mr. Gilani pressured Dr. Si ngh at Sharm-El-Shaikh by handing over a dossier of evidence alleging Indian involvement in cross-border terrorism in Balochistan and that was how the Prime Minister was forced to accept the reference to Balochistan. I was present at Sharm-El-Shaikh. Many Indian journalists were shocked on reading the joint statement. They asked me why Balochistan was mentioned in the statement. In fact, many of them, like many common Indians, were not aware of what was going on in Balochistan. Within a few hours, I started receiving calls from many Indian television channels asking what evidence Pakistan showed Dr. Singh of the alleged Indian involvement in Balochistan.
    .
    .
    .
    Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir told his Indian counterpart, Shiv Shankar Menon, that India must delink the composite dialogue process from action on terrorism, otherwise Pakistan would be forced to produce before the international media at least “three Indian Ajmal Kasabs” who were directly or indirectly part of the terrorist activities in Balochistan. He added that Pakistan would easily establish that the Indian Consulate in the Afghan city of Kandahar was actually a control room of terrorist activities organised by the separatist Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA). The three Indian nationals were arrested in Pakistan in the last few weeks. According to Pakistani officials, they have undeniable evidence of the links of these Indians with Baloch militants.
    India and the Baloch insurgency - TH-Delhi

  13. #58
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    RAW, ISI, CIA, FSB, CAPF? Whose spooks are you exactly refering to?

  14. #59
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    Speaking exactly Indians. Traditional.

  15. #60
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pak Nationalist View Post
    @ tronic:
    Kashmir is a very different story, there the people are fighting for a power which they consider is alien to them, and according to them it is something like: "A fight of liberation from the clutches of the Hindus" and India can't ever do anything about it.
    It really is no different at all. Pakistan is as much an alien power to the Balochi secessionists and they fight to free themselves from Islamabad's clutches. I do not know if Indian support factor is there in Balochistan or not, as you claim it is; so I'll let the time tell. I'm sure if Pakistan government has enough evidence, they will bring it to the international community. So far, I see it as simply for Pakistani domestic consumption, to deflect blame for Pakistan government's own shortcomings onto others.

    As far as Sikhs are concerned, they are a strange nation which devotedly fights for anyone.(please don't take as an offense) I say this by keeping in mind the Indian war of Independence in 1857, which failed probably because almost the whole british raj was in revolt accept Sikh soldiers.
    The Sikhs had not fully bought into the idea of one big unified India at that point, and were trying to get back against the other kingdoms which they saw had previously assisted the British in the Anglo-Sikh wars. Though, thats a discussion for another topic.
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