Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

NATO vs. Warsaw Pact

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
    You've probably got the ballistic data to back it up but I'd think the L7/M68 would fare nicely against the T-64/72s- at least out to expected engagement ranges of 1500-2000m. That's about max LOS around Fulda.
    Through the 70's it looks like the best we had in the US was 370mm RHAe or less vis a vis the M-735A1. This is against protection of about 500mm RHAe for Soviet models while the export version T-72M would have had less. I know Patton's with modern rounds for the time could and did penetrate the armor of the Asad Babal which were kit form T-72M imported from Poland during ODS, but this was with much better ammo than we had in the late 60's through the mid-70's. The Rest of NATO seems to have been in a similar boat. Thus Polish and East German T-72's should have been vulnerable with period ammuntion 9backed up by IDF M60/M48 vs T-72M in 1982), but Soviet formations might have shrugged our tank fire.

    http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/105ammo.htm

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=zraver;533024]
      Originally posted by tankie View Post

      From the late 60's to the late 70's NATO was outgunned in tanks. The Leopard 1 was very thin skinned. German designers decided that you could not defeat HEAT rounds and also keep the tank mobile so they didn't even try. It had less armor than a WW2 era Sherman tank. Its only real advantage was its very high speed for the time. it was armed with the same 105mm gun as the M60A1 and Centurion. The only real tank in the allied arsenal that could with the ammuntion of the time take on the T-72 and T-64 would be the Chieftan with its L11A5 120mm gun. The leopard 2 with its 120mm smoothbore did not arrive until 1979. For 12 years the Chieftan was the only allied tank on an even footing with the T-72/T-64.
      Agreed , on some points , i know the chieftain would have held its own and the cent was up to the task as well , its how you use them , but you are missing the point of my post , i was refering to the point made by ANON that he thinks that America is NATO as that is all he was comparing to the Russians . He only mentions American armour and weapons .;)
      Last edited by tankie; 18 Aug 08,, 07:21.

      Comment


      • tankie Reply

        Eric,

        How many RTRs did you guys have up in NORTHAG w/ the BAOR?
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

        Comment


        • [QUOTE=tankie;533243]
          Originally posted by zraver View Post

          Agreed , on some points , i know the chieftain would have held its own and the cent was up to the task as well , its how you use them , but you are missing the point of my post , i was refering to the point made by ANON that he thinks that America is NATO as that is all he was comparing to the Russians . He only mentions American armour and weapons .;)
          Well, until the Leopard 1 American armor made up 2 of the big 3(4) of NATO. Although the Cent was certainly the best tank the West had from the end of WW2 until the M60A1 with the Chin fillet and less flamable hydraulic fluid finally equalled it in 1963. Quite a reign on the throne 1945-63 nearly 20 years at the top by itself. Even then it did not slip out of first place for sure until 1967 and with the arrival of the Chieftan. So you could argue and say the Cent was number 1 form 45-67 or 22 years as the best tank in the west.

          But I understand your point. I got into a huge argument on wiki over the tank battles description of the 1965 Indo-Pakistani war. The Indian partisans were trying to paint both the M47 and M48 Pattons with thier lighter guns, more complex range finding, thinner armor, and higher profile as some how superior to the 105mm armed, thick skinned, co-incidence range finding Centurions India had.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
            Eric,

            How many RTRs did you guys have up in NORTHAG w/ the BAOR?
            Steve , at the time i was serving there were 4 RTR regiments , then , not all were stationed in BAOR but at one time they were , they were complemented by other tank equipped regiments who were Cavalry Regiments ,the difference being was that the RTR all wore Black overalls and ceremonial beret and were called Royal Tank regiments Whilst the Cavalry outfits wore green and their head dress was peaked cap ? they were Lancers ,dragoons Blues n royals etc etc , but only 5 at the time as i say were Tank Regiments RTR the actual stats of that time of units i dont know but i will try to find out . :)
            Last edited by tankie; 18 Aug 08,, 08:46.

            Comment


            • [QUOTE=zraver;533247]
              Originally posted by tankie View Post

              Well, until the Leopard 1 American armor made up 2 of the big 3(4) of NATO. Although the Cent was certainly the best tank the West had from the end of WW2 until the M60A1 with the Chin fillet and less flamable hydraulic fluid finally equalled it in 1963. Quite a reign on the throne 1945-63 nearly 20 years at the top by itself. Even then it did not slip out of first place for sure until 1967 and with the arrival of the Chieftan. So you could argue and say the Cent was number 1 form 45-67 or 22 years as the best tank in the west.

              But I understand your point. I got into a huge argument on wiki over the tank battles description of the 1965 Indo-Pakistani war. The Indian partisans were trying to paint both the M47 and M48 Pattons with thier lighter guns, more complex range finding, thinner armor, and higher profile as some how superior to the 105mm armed, thick skinned, co-incidence range finding Centurions India had.
              ;)

              Comment


              • British Army of the Rhine


                Unknown to many, the British Army of the Rhine was first established as an occupational force after the Great War of 1914 – 1918. It then went on to be disbanded in 1929. Little did people know that only 15 years later it would be back firmly in position.
                The second coming came about with the creation of Twenty-first Army Group, assigned with the invasion of Europe. Formed in September 1943 in England and commanded by General (later Field Marshal) Sir Bernard Montgomery, it initially controlled all ground forces in Operation Overlord. When sufficient American forces had landed, their own 12th Army Group was activated, under General Omar Bradley and 21st Army Group was left with British Second Army and First Canadian Army.
                After the successful Normandy landings, the units of 21st Army Group crossed the river Rhine near the Germany city of Wesel on 23 March 1945. After an advance which was thoroughly resisted, the British formations, along with the Canadians and Americans advanced into the German counties of Nordrhein-Westfalen, Niedersachsen and Schleswig-Holstein . This established the British Army occupying the north of the country.


                At the February 1945 Yalta Conference (and confirmed at the July 1945 Potsdam Conference) it was agreed that it should be divided into four with the addition of a small French Zone (adjacent to the Franco-German border). Similar arragements were agreed for Austria and the City of Berlin which was otherwise deep in East Germany (Russian Zone of Occupation). The earlier arrangement for the transfer of East Prussia and the move of the eastern border to the Oder Neisse Line remained unaltered.
                The map above shows the revised Zones, you will see that in addition to the new French Zone, the border of the British/American Zone has been moved north and a small American enclave round the River Weser including the Bremen Docks (which formed the ocean going terminal for military traffic from America).
                IEG-Maps, Institute of European History, Mainz / © A. Kunz, 2005


                Three months after the war had ended, 21st Army Group was redesignated “British Army of the Rhine”. This occupational force, which gained its new title on 25 August 1945 consisted of 80,000 men and consisted of the following:

                I Corps Area
                VII Corps Area
                XXX Corps Area
                British Troops Berlin

                Belonging to the British Army of the Rhine on that date were:


                Guards Division
                49th Division
                52nd Division
                53rd Division
                159th Brigade
                9th Artillery Group, Royal Artillery

                In 1947-48 it was reduced to three divisions/districts, with Bad Oeynhausen becoming home to HQ BAOR in 1948:


                2nd Infantry Division
                7th Armoured Division
                16th Parachute Brigade
                Berlin Brigade
                Hamburg District
                Hanover District

                The formation of NATO in 1949 had the BAOR as the British land force contribution. In September 1950 saw 11th Armoured Division reformed on German soil.
                I Corps was also reformed a year later, after its disbandment in 1947. 1951 saw the recreation of 6th Armoured Division in Great Britain, with it being moved to Germany in 1952. At this point the BAOR consisted of the following:


                1st Corps (Bad Oeynhausen)

                6th Armoured Division
                7th Armoured Division
                11th Armoured Division
                2nd Infantry Division

                British Troops Berlin
                Rhine Army Troops

                Hamburg District
                Hanover District
                Rhine District

                5 Army Group Royal Artillery (Anti-Aircraft)

                School of Artillery, BAOR
                Engineer Training Establishment, BAOR
                RAC Training Establishment, BAOR
                Rhine Army All Arms Training Centre
                Aquatic Training School, BAOR


                On 29 November 1952, the Headquarters of Northern Army Group (NORTHAG) formed. This NATO creation saw the BAOR being placed under its command. The ceased to by an occupation force and became responsible for the northern front from Hamburg to Kassel in the event of a Soviet invasion. To view a summary of the British Army in 1952 please click here.

                During October 1954 HQ BAOR reallocated from Bünde to Rheindalen. Only a month earlier had seen the first large scale NORTHAG exercise, appropriately named, Battle Royal. The BAOR at this point still consisted of 80,000 troops.

                1956 Saw more major changes to the BAOR. Brigade groups took over from divisions as the smallest operative units. This was the first major step towards the army of today, with a brigade group comprising of armour, infantry, an engineer squadron and armoured reconnaissance regiment, opposed to divisions comprising of solely infantry of armour ( the first case of mixed brigades being used effectively was near Soltau, April 1945, by 4th Armoured Brigade, led by Brigadier Carver). Also during this year on 1 April, 11th Armoured Division was reorganised into 4th Infantry Division. This consisted of:

                10th Infantry Brigade Group
                11th Infantry Brigade Group
                12th Infantry Brigade Group

                It was decided in 1957 that the British Army defending Europe from the Soviet threat should reduce down to 64,000 (still over three times of what remains today). The following year 7th Armoured Division was given the prefix of 5th and 6th Armoured Division amalgamated with 2 Inf Div who moved from Hilden to Lubbecke where the HQ was locate in TAX House.

                Between 1958 and 1960 National Service came to an end and further reductions in manpower took place. With 55,000 men, the restructuring of the BAOR took shape in the for of three divisions of two armoured brigade groups and five infantry brigade groups.

                In June 1960 came the creation of the 1st Amoured Division, formally 5th Armoured Division. Under its command came 7th and 20th Armoured Brigade Groups.


                The shoulder flash of 1 (BR) Corps

                Major reorganisation was not far away, as seven brigade groups were reorganised into three central divisions, during 1963. 5th Brigade group returned to Great Britain as strategic reserve, with 1 (BR) Corps (redesignated to distinguish it from other NATO corps) consisting of:


                4th Guards Brigade Group
                6th Infantry Brigade Group
                11th Infantry Brigade Group
                12th Infantry Brigade Group
                7th Armoured Brigade Group
                20th Armoured Brigade Group


                In 1965 the organisation of BAOR went full circle again with brigade groups redesignated to brigades. The following year the organisation was as follows:

                HQ BAOR (Rheindalen)
                1 (BR) Corps (Bielefeld)
                1st Division (Verden)
                2nd Division (Lübbecke)
                4th Division (Herford)


                The subordinate brigades were:

                4th Guards Infantry Brigade (Uelzen)
                6th Infantry Brigade (Münster)
                7th Armoured Brigade (Soltau)
                11th Infantry Brigade (Minden)
                12th Infantry Brigade (Osnabrück)
                20th Armoured Brigade (Detmold)
                Berlin Brigade (Berlin)


                In 1968 6th Infantry Brigade was relocated back to Great Britain, only to return in the Autumn of 1970. Its new location was in the towns of Iserlohn and Soest, as the previous occupants (The Canadian Brigade) had moved to southern Germany

                By 1973, 1 (BR) Corps consisted of:

                1st Division (Verden)
                7th Armoured Brigade (Soltau)
                11th Infantry Brigade (Minden)

                2nd Division (Lübbecke)
                4th Guards Infantry Brigade (Münster)
                12th Mechanised Brigade (Osnabrück)

                4th Division (Herford)
                6th Armoured Brigade (Körbecke)
                20th Armoured Brigade (Detmold)
                1st Artillery Brigade (Hildesheim)
                HQ/Signals Battery (Hildesheim)
                2 x Heavy Field Artillery Regiments (Hildesheim)
                2 x Missile Artillery Regiments (Hildesheim)
                7th Air Defence Brigade (Dortmund)
                11th Engineer Brigade (Hameln)


                With September in 1976 came the creation of the Artillery Division. Headed from Bielefeld it comprised of;


                5th Heavy Regiment RA (Hildesheim)
                50th Missile Regiment, RA (Menden)
                12 Air Defence Regiment, RA (Dortmund)
                22nd Air Defence Regiment, RA (Soest)
                94th Locating Regiment, RA (Celle)
                1st Battalion, The Royal Scots, Infantry (Münster)
                8th Transport Regiment, RCT (Münster)


                More reorganisation was implemented in January 1978 with the creation of 3rd and th Armoured Brigades. The divisions were created from 6th (Soest) and 20th (Detmold) Armoured Brigades and the divisional troops of 4th Division. A very armour orientated BAOR were as follows:

                1 (BR) Corps (Bielefeld)
                1st Armoured Division (Verden)
                2nd Armoured Division (Lübbecke)
                3rd Armoured Division (Körbecke)
                4th Armoured Division (Herford)
                5th Field Force (Osnabrück)
                Artillery Division (Bielefeld)


                Each of the above regiments were also bolstered by an Army Air Corps Regiment. Each regiment shared the same prefix as the armoured divisions, with the exception of 9th Regiment, Army Air Corps which served at corps level.

                Eventually all good things must come to an end and so it did with 1 British Corps being disbanded and replaced by Allied Command Europe Rapid Reaction Corps (ARRC), which is part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. This development in 1992 and the “Options for Change” redundancy package were a sign of things to come now that the “Russian hordes” were no longer seen to be the main threat.

                Now in 2007 further reductions look to be in place with the proposed closure of Münster, Osnabruck, Celle and JHQ. What good has come from it is that this has given longer life to the likes of Fallingbostel/Hohne, Paderborn/Sennelager and Bielefeld/Gütersloh/Herford. Time will tell.

                Hope this helps Steve , all those places mentioned i lived in except Paderborn . Herford being the best posting IMO .

                Comment


                • tankie Reply

                  "Hope this helps Steve , all those places mentioned i lived in except Paderborn . Herford being the best posting IMO ."

                  Eric,

                  Thanks! It was helpful. I was looking to take it one step further, though. Understand about your dragoons, blues/royals, etc.

                  Still, what I was looking for would be the total number of your tank regiments in W. Germany, be they RTRs or cavalry/dragoon lineage, i.e., a mech or infantry brigade probably had a single tank regiment but an armoured brigade (presumably) had two.

                  Best that I could guesstimate was nine regiments (battalions) or so. At fifty tanks per, that's a lot- 450 or so in W. Germany.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                  Comment


                  • York Barracks
                    Built -
                    Type - Luftwaffe
                    Original name -
                    History -

                    This barracks is situated in the Gremmendorf district of town.

                    Home to:

                    Headquarters

                    20th Armoured Brigade Dec 1951-?
                    6th Infantry Brigade, 2nd Division ?-1968
                    4th (Guards) Armoured Brigade, 6th Division 1968-?
                    HQ 4 Mechanised Brigade 1981-1993 (1)

                    Headquarter Signals

                    4th Signal Squadron , 6th Armoured Division Signal Regiment (on behalf of 20 Armoured Bde) (?-1954-?)
                    206 Signal Squadron, 6th Infantry/Armoured Brigade (4)
                    6 Infantry Brigade Headquarter and Signal Squadron
                    4 Guards Armoured Brigade and Signal Squadron

                    Regiments

                    RAC

                    5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards 1946-November 1948 (6)
                    17th/21st Lancers 1951-1960
                    Queen's Own Hussars 1960-1962
                    4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards August 1962 -September 1965 (5)
                    10th Royal Hussars 1965-1969
                    1ST Royal Tank Regiment from late 60s to early 70s Osnabruck then Herford 1976 .
                    3rd Carabiniers 1969- 1970 (2)
                    5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards 1968-1974 (7)
                    4th Royal Tank Regiment 1974-1982
                    Queen's Royal Irish Hussars 1982-1990
                    The Royal Hussars Dec 1990 -1992 (3)
                    The King's Royal Hussars Dec 1992-1998
                    The Royal Dragoon Guards 2001-pres



                    RAMC

                    1 Close Support Medical Regiment

                    Sub Units

                    Special Investigation Branch (a unit accommodated here for last few months of 1954)
                    43 Sy (mid 1980's - present?)
                    TOC-H
                    101 RMP Detatchment circa 1963
                    MSO Detatchment circa 1963
                    Medical and Dental Centres
                    Families NAAFI

                    (1) In 1948 4th Armoured Brigade was disbanded but was reformed in 1981 in Münster. It moved to Quebec Barracks, Osnabrück in 1993.
                    (2) The 3rd Carabiniers left for Harewood Barracks, Herford. The departed by road with all the vehicles they possessed including, Saladins, Saracens and Ferets.
                    (3) The Royal Hussars and 14th/20th King's Hussars amalgamated on 4 December 1992. They went on to become The King's Royal Hussars.
                    (4) With the integration of Headquarters and Signal units in 1964, the Squadron was redesigned 6 Infantry Brigade Headquarter and Signal Squadron and assumed the additional responsibility for administration of the Brigade Headquarters.
                    (5) Dates confirmed by RDG Museum.
                    (6) Details supplied by RDG Museum.
                    (7) RDG Museum gives dates as June 1970 to November 1973. It is possible that they moved here from Herford.




                    In Jan 68, I was posted to 4 Gds Bde HQ & Sig Sqn. They were at that time in Iserlohn but in Feb of that year, we moved to York Barracks in Munster. To the best of my knowledge, they stayed there until the early 90s. AT the time there was also a regiment of Dragoon Gds in the barracks,the name escapes me but they were replaced by the Enniskillin Dragoon Gds.
                    Don Murray .






                    I believe HQ 4 Guards Bde moved there from the Düsseldorf area in the mid 60s, then retitled HQ 4 Mechanised Brigade moved to Osnabruck in 1993. The Armoured Recce Regiments during my time in Münster were: 1969, 10th Hussars immediately prior to amalgamation with the 11th Hussars to form the Royal Hussars. 1970, 3rd Carabiniers immediately prior to amalgamation with the Scots Greys to form the Scots Dragoon Guards. They were replaced in late 70 by the 5th Dragoon Guards as stated in the Armoured(Tank) role.
                    PW


                    In the summer of 1976 The Royal Tank Regiment held a "roll call" in Münster Garrison. The roll call was held in both Swinton & York Bks. The main "all ranks" do was I'm sure held in York barracks. This event which incorporated numerous inter regiment sporting contests plus important social events including an RTR Association Weekend was held to celebrate the fact that for the first time since the end of WW II all 4 RTR regiments were based in Germany at the same time. Munster was chosen as the venue because both 2 RTR ( Swinton Bks) & 4 RTR ( York Bks) were based in the city. Timing was vital as 1 RTR had only recently arrived in Herford from Tidworth and 3 RTR were soon to depart Fallingbostel for Tidworth.

                    Hope this helps Steve ;)
                    Last edited by tankie; 18 Aug 08,, 08:48.

                    Comment


                    • S-2,

                      M-774 DU would kill a T-72A with ease at regular combat range but as Zraver said, that was an eighties developement. Bulked up T-64s might prove a challenge. I think T-64BV had an extra layer of applique face-hardened steel behind their K-1 bricks. Those 125mm guns caused quite a bit of discomfiture back in the days, I was told.
                      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                      Comment


                      • tankie Reply

                        Eric,

                        Super. Thanks mucho! That helps considerably to figure the tanks you guys could put down-range. Clears more than a bit of my confusion about the non-RTR armored units in the BAOR also.:)

                        I'm appreciative.
                        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                          M-774 DU would kill a T-72A with ease at regular combat range but as Zraver said, that was an eighties developement. Bulked up T-64s might prove a challenge. I think T-64BV had an extra layer of applique face-hardened steel behind their K-1 bricks. Those 125mm guns caused quite a bit of discomfiture back in the days, I was told.
                          IIRC the M774 and XM829 both stem from the same development trials held in 1979 that determined the use of DU and a longer length to diameter ratio would greatly improve penentratio (I've read the paper and its own the net). After that penetration values went way up for Western rounds. In the early 70's 9beofre the T-64 was in common service) the Soviet T-72 would ahve been nearly immune to allied tank guns, but the Warsaw Pact forces equipped with the T-72M would ahve been vulnerable. But given that Soviet tanks were the msot common threat this bit of good news about the pact tanks is less than comforting. I think the world dodged a big bullet in the early 70s. If the Soviets had decided to come west only nukes would have stopped them. Not only did they have the T-72 to spearhead thier drivs, but also the BMP-1 IFV/infantry support veihicle. For the first time the BMP gave its infantry the organic ability to actually outrange tanks with its sagger missile system.

                          Comment


                          • Zraver Reply

                            "I think the world dodged a big bullet in the early 70s. If the Soviets had decided to come west only nukes would have stopped them."

                            I absolutely concur. Preoccupation pales as a description with our focus on turning around the conventional imbalance. It was thoroughly de-stabilizing otherwise.

                            NATO's inability to win the "first battle of the next war" (oh, and the next and next in the Soviet echeloned advance) meant that we'd go nuclear almost immediately. Force manpower, structure, doctrine, training, equipment all had to be revitalized- ASAP.

                            An all-consuming task, but then everybody was sorta uncomfortable with our conventional (in particular, our ground force) options back then. A pair of deuces and on our ass, to put it mildly, is no way to play nuclear poker.:))
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                              "I think the world dodged a big bullet in the early 70s. If the Soviets had decided to come west only nukes would have stopped them."

                              I absolutely concur. Preoccupation pales as a description with our focus on turning around the conventional imbalance. It was thoroughly de-stabilizing otherwise.

                              NATO's inability to win the "first battle of the next war" (oh, and the next and next in the Soviet echeloned advance) meant that we'd go nuclear almost immediately. Force manpower, structure, doctrine, training, equipment all had to be revitalized- ASAP.

                              An all-consuming task, but then everybody was sorta uncomfortable with our conventional (in particular, our ground force) options back then. A pair of deuces and on our ass, to put it mildly, is no way to play nuclear poker.:))
                              Add to this Germany's demand that the battle be fought at the border pinning troops in palce for the Soviets. Luckily the Soviets didn't come West. I still don't trust the post-Cold war claims that they never planned to. Thier posture and organisation was purely offensive.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                                Eric,

                                Super. Thanks mucho! That helps considerably to figure the tanks you guys could put down-range. Clears more than a bit of my confusion about the non-RTR armored units in the BAOR also.:)

                                I'm appreciative.
                                Your welcome Steve , there has always been confusion about Tank Regiments and The Cavalry Regiments equiped with Tanks , that why we RTR were called tankies , and the Cavalry we gave them the name ,, donkey wallopers ? :))

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X