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  • Vatican responds to sex abuse accusations

    I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this.

    Apparently this is meant as a defence. It stands as a stunning statement of just how removed from reality the Vatican is. Bad enough that they protect abusers & then treat victims terribly. Then they point fingers at everyone else & blame those 'disordered' homosexuals. A simple 'sorry' would be a good start, followed by an opening of all Church records on the issue & huge compensation payouts.

    My personal favourite is this one: ''available research'' showed that only 1.5 per cent to 5 per cent of Catholic clergy were involved in child sex abuse. Well, thats alright then. Can't see what everyone was getting so upset about. Nothing to see here.



    Vatican responds to sex abuse accusations

    RIAZAT BUTT AND ANUSHKA ASTHANA, LONDON

    September 30, 2009

    THE Vatican has lashed out at criticism over its handling of its pedophilia crisis by saying the Catholic Church was ''busy cleaning its own house'' and that the problems with clerical sex abuse in other churches were as big, if not bigger.

    In a defiant and provocative statement, issued after a meeting of the UN human rights council in Geneva, the Holy See said most of the Catholic clergy who committed such acts were not pedophiles but homosexuals attracted to sex with adolescent males.

    The statement, read out by Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican's permanent observer to the UN, defended its record by claiming that ''available research'' showed that only 1.5 per cent to 5 per cent of Catholic clergy were involved in child sex abuse.

    He also quoted statistics from the Christian Science Monitor newspaper to show that most US churches being hit by child sex abuse allegations were Protestant and that sexual abuse within Jewish communities was common.

    He added that sexual abuse was far more likely to be committed by family members, babysitters, friends, relatives or neighbours, and male children were quite often guilty of sexual molestation of other children.

    The Holy See launched its counter-attack after an international representative of the International Humanist and Ethical Union, Keith Porteous Wood, accused it of covering up child abuse and being in breach of several articles under the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

    Mr Porteous Wood said the Holy See had not contradicted any of his accusations. ''The many thousands of victims of abuse deserve the international community to hold the Vatican to account, something it has been unwilling to do, so far,'' he said.

    ''Both states and children's organisations must unite to pressurise the Vatican to open its files, change its procedures worldwide and report suspected abusers to civil authorities.''

    Representatives from other religions were dismayed by the Holy See's attempts to distance itself from controversy by pointing the finger at other faiths.

    Rabbi Joseph Potasnik, head of the New York Board of Rabbis, said: ''Comparative tragedy is a dangerous path on which to travel. All of us need to look within our own communities. Child abuse is sinful and shameful and we must expel them immediately from our midst.''

    A spokesman for the US Episcopal Church said measures for the prevention of misconduct and the safeguarding of children had been in place for years.

    GUARDIAN
    Vatican responds to sex abuse accusations
    sigpic

    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  • #2
    Sigh! The Vatican is caught in a bind over their age-old absolute doctrine of celibacy for their priests.

    This goes against primeval human nature. And Catholic priests are in a position of authority over their believers.

    It is unlikely that they'll change this doctrine. But they'll have to decide how to handle future cases of abuse and church cover-up.
    Last edited by Merlin; 05 Oct 09,, 10:47.

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    • #3
      Originally Posted by gunnut
      I have a question: if Polanski was a catholic priest and the little girl was a boy, would Hollywood still support him? Or anyone? [Qoute]

      Originally Posted by tankie

      As the past shows , the catholic church would try to spirit him away , shut shop , but sometimes it just cant stop the doors from opening wide .

      And its not just the Catholic church either .[Quote]

      Last edited by tankie; 05 Oct 09,, 14:03.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Merlin View Post
        Sigh! The Vatican is caught in a bind over their age-old absolute doctrine of celibacy for their priests.

        This goes against primeval human nature. And Catholic priests are in a position of authority over their believers.

        It is unlikely that they'll change this doctrine. But they'll have to decide how to handle future cases of abuse and church cover-up.

        Merlin,

        I think there are a number of problems at work here, celibacy is just one. As the Vatican so hamfistedly pointed out, this problem is not just restricted to the Catholic Church. Denominations & religions that permit their priests or equivalent figures to marry have also had issues. The same is true of institutions such as schools. I don't know if the Catholic Church has had a worse problem or not.

        I think the major issue here is about power relationships. Sexual abuse has more to do with power than sex as any of us understand it. In particular the power imbalance between child & abuser often makes it possible to abuse & cover up. Situations where the adult is granted even greater specific authority - that of the family, school or religion - simply amplify the power of potential abusers.

        There are a couple of issues that I think are either particular to the Catholic Church or at the very least worse.

        You brought up the issue of celibacy. As I said, I'm not sure that it has made things worse, but it may have.

        Some time ago I read an essay by noted Australian author & journalist David Marr. He once trained as a Catholic priest before admitting to himself that he was homosexual & leaving the church. His observations on his time in the seminary are fascinating. The first thing he pointed out was the surprising number of seminarians who were obviously or most likely homosexual. He observed that the church has created a very dangerous mix - demonizing sex & especially homosexuality combined with the offer of a celibate life dedicated to God. He felt that this first terrified young men already concerned or confused about sex & sexuality (usually adolescents when they joined the seminary) and then dangled in front of them a safe place (celibacy) and a chance at redemption (serving God). The risks of this are obvious.

        The other issue is the structure of the Church. Bureacracies tend toward self protection & arse covering at the best of times, & the Catholic Church is a powerful bureacracy. Worse, it is one that ministers to the deepest of human needs - those of the spirit - an attempts to teach Catholics from an early age that the Church is the only means of eternal salvation. This gives it power over potential complainants that no regular bureacracy can claim. This places an even higher burden on the Church to protect its parishioners & deal with them transparently & compassionately.

        The problems of the Catholic Church may not be unique, but it has handled them spectacularly badly. What I find so damaging is the attitude of 'senior management' figures such as Bishops & above toward ordinary Catholics. Not being a believer, my attitude toward the Church for some time has been that I fervently hope that those for whom the Church means so much never find out how little they mean to the Church. This article tells me that my concern remains valid.
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        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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        • #5
          [QUOTE=tankie;679306]Originally Posted by gunnut
          I have a question: if Polanski was a catholic priest and the little girl was a boy, would Hollywood still support him? Or anyone? [Qoute]

          Originally Posted by tankie

          As the past shows , the catholic church would try to spirit him away , shut shop , but sometimes it just cant stop the doors from opening wide .

          And its not just the Catholic church either .

          From the Polanski thread

          Looks like someone has been paying attention. :)
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • #6
            Rabbi Potasnick nailed it when he said:

            ''Comparative tragedy is a dangerous path on which to travel. All of us need to look within our own communities. Child abuse is sinful and shameful and we must expel them immediately from our midst.''
            Until the Church steps up and takes responsibility for the actions of its priests and removes them from its ranks, instead of attempting to divert attention from itself, it will continue to be a haven for those who would prey on innocents.
            Buy the ticket, take the ride.

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            • #7
              [QUOTE=Bigfella;679312]
              Originally posted by tankie View Post
              Originally Posted by gunnut
              I have a question: if Polanski was a catholic priest and the little girl was a boy, would Hollywood still support him? Or anyone? [Qoute]

              Originally Posted by tankie

              As the past shows , the catholic church would try to spirit him away , shut shop , but sometimes it just cant stop the doors from opening wide .

              And its not just the Catholic church either .


              Looks like someone has been paying attention. :)
              Yup , can i be the milk monitor now :)), by the way B/F , your post was a good un ;)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tim52 View Post
                Rabbi Potasnick nailed it when he said:



                Until the Church steps up and takes responsibility for the actions of its priests and removes them from its ranks, instead of attempting to divert attention from itself, it will continue to be a haven for those who would prey on innocents.
                Spot on , IMO .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tim52 View Post
                  Rabbi Potasnick nailed it when he said:



                  Until the Church steps up and takes responsibility for the actions of its priests and removes them from its ranks, instead of attempting to divert attention from itself, it will continue to be a haven for those who would prey on innocents.
                  Absolutely - I'm a former Catholic who has largely revoked his faith, I still believe in a god and in certain Catholic tenants but I can't go to a Catholic Church and I can't put money in a box and I can't accept communion, and I won't confess my sins to people who have been involved (including indirectly through cover ups) in this mess.

                  The collaberation (whisking away guilty priests to different parishes) at the top levels is shocking and has left a bitter taste in the victims mouths, with good reason.
                  I just have no respect for it anymore - I don't get why priests can't marry, I don't get why women can't be priests and I don't get why homosexuality (and sexuality in general) is a genuine obsession of the Church.

                  Why not just live and let live, why degrade everything out of ordinary and at the same time beat people for being ordinary (sex is dirty, contraception?!)?

                  My wife is Church of Ireland (Episcopalian/Anglican), I'm seriously considering joining her: a more liberal, more sensible, more tolerant faith, and If the Catholic Church doesn't change it will literally fall apart in the Western World, because lots of other people who have moderate faith and won't put up with this bull either.
                  Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                  - John Stuart Mill.

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                  • #10
                    The human face of this abuse (should be CCed to the pope!):

                    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                    - John Stuart Mill.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by crooks View Post
                      The human face of this abuse (should be CCed to the pope!):

                      Very disturbing , poor guy must be a very tormented MAN indeed

                      I am and am staying ,agnostic/athiest ,or whatever a person wants to call it ,and as for the pope crooks watch out for the Hitler youth knife in your back , et tu brute , but i have no problems with people who actively seek religeon , an Irishman comedian put it very well when he said ,wherever you go ,may your particular gods go with you , Dave Allen , RIP .
                      Last edited by tankie; 05 Oct 09,, 16:38.

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                      • #12
                        I agree very disturbing indeed. The Catholic Church cannot hope to maintain any credibility until they give a full and complete accounting of themselves and take action so these activities will never be tolerated again.
                        Buy the ticket, take the ride.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That is the crux of the problem. The vatican believes they are so righteous in whatever they do so they are sick and tired of lessor people giving them criticism.
                          Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                            That is the crux of the problem. The vatican believes they are so righteous in whatever they do so they are sick and tired of lessor people giving them criticism.
                            Lesser people B/H , and just what makes them so high and mighty .oops i know ,they have an institution that for years has raped ,pillaged , and frightened the populace for millenia ;)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bonehead View Post
                              That is the crux of the problem. The Vatican believes they are so righteous in whatever they do so they are sick and tired of lesser people giving them criticism.
                              Originally posted by tankie View Post
                              Lesser people B/H , and just what makes them so high and mighty .oops i know ,they have an institution that for years has raped ,pillaged , and frightened the populace for millennia ;)
                              In fairness the modern Catholic Church has done many good works that have helped hundreds of thousands if not millions of people.

                              Unfortunately the hierarchies of the church, the bishops, archbishops and cardinals have in their paternalistic view of their flock become disconnected from the moral outrage felt by society and church members about these sexual predations by priests upon young boys and girls.

                              What they fail to understand is that as spiritual and moral authorities they are expected to maintain a higher moral and ethical standard than the average man or woman. It is similar to when politicians point fingers at their political opponents for supporting gay rights or failing to uphold the sanctity of marriage, and are then found soliciting prostitutes or engaged in extramarital affairs.

                              The fact that some of these priests preyed on the most helpless of victims; young boys and girls and then used their position of moral authority to deflect scrutiny makes these crimes all the more heinous. And until the Church understands this they will continue to lose members and be castigated by the public.
                              Buy the ticket, take the ride.

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