M-21: 1. A tracked vehicle is never going to run
with a road wheel blown off like a stryker/LAV will.
MS: a. What blows off road wheel in Stryker mangles it and the otherwheels alongside it.
b. WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT ITS WHEELED IT GOT YOU
BLOWN UP IN THE FIRST PLACE?
M-21: 2. A tracked vehicle is never going to match the
on-road performance of a wheeled vehicle.
MS: WRONG. With band tracks M113 Gavins are faster than
Stryker trucks on roads, too.
WHY DO WE WANT TO BE ON ROADS ANYWAY?
M-21: No one in power seems to care about a robust air
deployable mechanized force, for whatever reason(i
suspect it's probably due to the USAF more than
anything).
MS: they are corrupt they must be removed from power
so we can get the Bin Ladens/Saddams of this world.
M-21: My old unit had M-113A3's as our mechanized component,
and we were expected to stand toe to toe with the
Russians with no hi-tech gadgetry or automated gun
mounts. No FLIRS, no high-speed low-drag comms, or
situational awareness aids. We were fully prepared to
do just that. I have no doubt whatsoever that if you took my old Bn and put them in strykers(or Heavy Hummers for that matter) that we'd be every bit as effective.
The man makes the warrior, not the machine.
MS: WRONG.
Combat history is full of examples of men in
vulnerable rubber tired trucks restricted to
roads/trails being beaten easily regardless of how
courageous/skilled.
You are buying into BS narcissism here.
M-21: The Stryker(just like the M-113) is not made to fight toe to toe with the enemy, it is designed to
rapidly move it's large payload of infantrymen in
close proximity to the fight and drop them off fresh and
rested while providing all-around .50BMG protection, a
high level of RPG protection, and mounted HMG/AGL
overwatch support.
MS: WRONG.
Stryker is not like M113 Gavin. Vietnam war proved
that you can fight effectively MOUNTED in M113 Gavin
ACAVs. IDF has proven up-armored M113 Gavins can also
fight to and through objectives. Stop making excuses
for BS Stryker trucks by ASS U MING they are equal to
M113 Gavin tracks when they are not.
M-21: It's fine for that role IMO.
MS: You are wong IMHO.
M-21: Do i agree the money would've been spent better on
an enhanced M-113"A4"?
Absolutely.
Is there any chance that's going to happen?
No.
MS: WRONG.
Already happening.
M-21: For better or worse, Stryker is here to stay,
there's simply no point *****ing about it anymore.(I
felt exactly the same way about the F-14D vs F-18E
debate, but what's done is done).
MS: Says who?
M561 Gamma Goat went bye bye, so will Stryker trucks
that are self-destructing on their own (too much
weight on too little drivetrains etc.)
M-21: What i highly reccomend is that you focus your
efforts on quashing the FCS system NOW, while
something CAN be done about that.
MS: I AM BILL. YOU JUST DO NOT GET IT.
FCS WILL BNE CANCELLED AND STRYKER WILL BECOME THE
BOOBY CONSOLATION PRIZE FOR ARMY.
**** THAT.
We allow this we're finished as an Army, we're
finished as a nation.
That's what is at stake here.
M-21: We lost the Stryker fight.
MS: Says who?
M-21: Let's make sure we don't lose the FCS fight next.
If you must keep fixating on stryker, i highly suggest
you instead shift your efforts into lobbying to have
it's deficiencies corrected, rather than beating your
head against the wall over a weapons system that is
already in service.
MS: THE STRYKER CANNOT BE FIXED.
READ THE CALL REPORT.
M-21: One(Stryker) that quite frankly, is going to be with us for
quite a long time.
MS: Nope, its dying already. Its not maintainable.
M-21: And as far as getting troops killed, more troops
have died in M-113s(B-40's in vietnam) than are likely
to ever be killed in Strykers.
MS: WRONG AGAIN.
Go back and do some research.
We have 1, 775 vanilla M113 Gavins in IRAQ NOW and
less Soldiers have died in them than in 311 (now 283)
Stryker trucks.
At the rate Soldiers are dying in Strykers it will not
be long before their death count exceeds the 45 year
combat history of the M113 Gavin in U.S. Army service.
M-21: It doesn't mean the M-113 was no good...just that
it can be overmatched with certain weapons.
MS: THATS WHY WE NEED TO NOT BE LAZY AND UP-ARMOR THEM.
This is already happening.
M-21: You know as well as i that an uparmored M-113
will not survive a TOW II, IED, or tank main gun hit any
better than a Stryker will.
MS: YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
First, don't lump these threats different destructive
effects together.
Next face reality---M113 Gavin is 1.5 to 1.75 inch
think aluminum alloy hull at 10.5 tons with up to 500
hp propulsion potential compared to a 17 ton LAV-III
which is 28% bigger.
WE CANNOT AFFORD TO SQUANDER 28% of our armor
potential with a Stryker truck.
Go back and do some research:
www.geocities.com/armorhistory/infantrytanks.htm
M-21: The Stryker has proven it can withstand RPG hits even with interim armor, and at this point i just
don't see any major glaring weakness with the system
that will prevent it's dismounts from doing their job.
MS: You are not thinking very deep on this. WE ARE GETTING CREAMED ON ROADS IN TRUCKS. We are rounding up Iraqis and brutalizing them. The rebellion is growing. We are not securing anything. We are having our asses kicked and we are losing.
M-21: BTW, in over a year of combat operations the
Stryker Company CO i told you about never lost a
single man to enemy fire. Not one.
MS: You are a fool to listen to someone who is full of
**** and a liar. The Army placed Strykers in the
quietest part of Northern Iraq. I have confirmation of
this from OSD. We have M113 Gavin units that didn't
lose ANYONE during NATION-STATE COMBAT for example.
"Upgraded M113 Gavin tracks in brigade combat teams
backed by M8 Buford AGS light tanks are far superior
to Strykers who can't survive even in a COIN
environment."
My question for you, Bill is do you THINK or just take
the prevailing BS you are surrounded by and adopt it
here and there? I am not trying to be mean but you
seriously disappoint me with your politically correct
views on some of the above. Weak co-dependants go
along with BS and die. I lost two friends last year to
the wheeled BS and I owe it to them and the many
others to blow the whistle on this.
Mike
-----------------------------------------------
There you have it. That's what a debate with a crazed insane person looks like....lol. ;)
with a road wheel blown off like a stryker/LAV will.
MS: a. What blows off road wheel in Stryker mangles it and the otherwheels alongside it.
b. WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT ITS WHEELED IT GOT YOU
BLOWN UP IN THE FIRST PLACE?
M-21: 2. A tracked vehicle is never going to match the
on-road performance of a wheeled vehicle.
MS: WRONG. With band tracks M113 Gavins are faster than
Stryker trucks on roads, too.
WHY DO WE WANT TO BE ON ROADS ANYWAY?
M-21: No one in power seems to care about a robust air
deployable mechanized force, for whatever reason(i
suspect it's probably due to the USAF more than
anything).
MS: they are corrupt they must be removed from power
so we can get the Bin Ladens/Saddams of this world.
M-21: My old unit had M-113A3's as our mechanized component,
and we were expected to stand toe to toe with the
Russians with no hi-tech gadgetry or automated gun
mounts. No FLIRS, no high-speed low-drag comms, or
situational awareness aids. We were fully prepared to
do just that. I have no doubt whatsoever that if you took my old Bn and put them in strykers(or Heavy Hummers for that matter) that we'd be every bit as effective.
The man makes the warrior, not the machine.
MS: WRONG.
Combat history is full of examples of men in
vulnerable rubber tired trucks restricted to
roads/trails being beaten easily regardless of how
courageous/skilled.
You are buying into BS narcissism here.
M-21: The Stryker(just like the M-113) is not made to fight toe to toe with the enemy, it is designed to
rapidly move it's large payload of infantrymen in
close proximity to the fight and drop them off fresh and
rested while providing all-around .50BMG protection, a
high level of RPG protection, and mounted HMG/AGL
overwatch support.
MS: WRONG.
Stryker is not like M113 Gavin. Vietnam war proved
that you can fight effectively MOUNTED in M113 Gavin
ACAVs. IDF has proven up-armored M113 Gavins can also
fight to and through objectives. Stop making excuses
for BS Stryker trucks by ASS U MING they are equal to
M113 Gavin tracks when they are not.
M-21: It's fine for that role IMO.
MS: You are wong IMHO.
M-21: Do i agree the money would've been spent better on
an enhanced M-113"A4"?
Absolutely.
Is there any chance that's going to happen?
No.
MS: WRONG.
Already happening.
M-21: For better or worse, Stryker is here to stay,
there's simply no point *****ing about it anymore.(I
felt exactly the same way about the F-14D vs F-18E
debate, but what's done is done).
MS: Says who?
M561 Gamma Goat went bye bye, so will Stryker trucks
that are self-destructing on their own (too much
weight on too little drivetrains etc.)
M-21: What i highly reccomend is that you focus your
efforts on quashing the FCS system NOW, while
something CAN be done about that.
MS: I AM BILL. YOU JUST DO NOT GET IT.
FCS WILL BNE CANCELLED AND STRYKER WILL BECOME THE
BOOBY CONSOLATION PRIZE FOR ARMY.
**** THAT.
We allow this we're finished as an Army, we're
finished as a nation.
That's what is at stake here.
M-21: We lost the Stryker fight.
MS: Says who?
M-21: Let's make sure we don't lose the FCS fight next.
If you must keep fixating on stryker, i highly suggest
you instead shift your efforts into lobbying to have
it's deficiencies corrected, rather than beating your
head against the wall over a weapons system that is
already in service.
MS: THE STRYKER CANNOT BE FIXED.
READ THE CALL REPORT.
M-21: One(Stryker) that quite frankly, is going to be with us for
quite a long time.
MS: Nope, its dying already. Its not maintainable.
M-21: And as far as getting troops killed, more troops
have died in M-113s(B-40's in vietnam) than are likely
to ever be killed in Strykers.
MS: WRONG AGAIN.
Go back and do some research.
We have 1, 775 vanilla M113 Gavins in IRAQ NOW and
less Soldiers have died in them than in 311 (now 283)
Stryker trucks.
At the rate Soldiers are dying in Strykers it will not
be long before their death count exceeds the 45 year
combat history of the M113 Gavin in U.S. Army service.
M-21: It doesn't mean the M-113 was no good...just that
it can be overmatched with certain weapons.
MS: THATS WHY WE NEED TO NOT BE LAZY AND UP-ARMOR THEM.
This is already happening.
M-21: You know as well as i that an uparmored M-113
will not survive a TOW II, IED, or tank main gun hit any
better than a Stryker will.
MS: YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
First, don't lump these threats different destructive
effects together.
Next face reality---M113 Gavin is 1.5 to 1.75 inch
think aluminum alloy hull at 10.5 tons with up to 500
hp propulsion potential compared to a 17 ton LAV-III
which is 28% bigger.
WE CANNOT AFFORD TO SQUANDER 28% of our armor
potential with a Stryker truck.
Go back and do some research:
www.geocities.com/armorhistory/infantrytanks.htm
M-21: The Stryker has proven it can withstand RPG hits even with interim armor, and at this point i just
don't see any major glaring weakness with the system
that will prevent it's dismounts from doing their job.
MS: You are not thinking very deep on this. WE ARE GETTING CREAMED ON ROADS IN TRUCKS. We are rounding up Iraqis and brutalizing them. The rebellion is growing. We are not securing anything. We are having our asses kicked and we are losing.
M-21: BTW, in over a year of combat operations the
Stryker Company CO i told you about never lost a
single man to enemy fire. Not one.
MS: You are a fool to listen to someone who is full of
**** and a liar. The Army placed Strykers in the
quietest part of Northern Iraq. I have confirmation of
this from OSD. We have M113 Gavin units that didn't
lose ANYONE during NATION-STATE COMBAT for example.
"Upgraded M113 Gavin tracks in brigade combat teams
backed by M8 Buford AGS light tanks are far superior
to Strykers who can't survive even in a COIN
environment."
My question for you, Bill is do you THINK or just take
the prevailing BS you are surrounded by and adopt it
here and there? I am not trying to be mean but you
seriously disappoint me with your politically correct
views on some of the above. Weak co-dependants go
along with BS and die. I lost two friends last year to
the wheeled BS and I owe it to them and the many
others to blow the whistle on this.
Mike
-----------------------------------------------
There you have it. That's what a debate with a crazed insane person looks like....lol. ;)
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