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Israel: Lies & Distortions Corrected

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  • #16
    We can also examine whether there is a judicial system in the world - including the United States, Great Britain, or France - that makes such efforts to bring its military into compliance with international law.

    That would also be an objective measure.

    The head of the Israeli Supreme Court is Aharon Barak, a genuine Human Rights person (one could criticize him, if anything, for going out of his way and endangering his country), and who has opened the Supreme Court of Israel to all claims of law violation, including those brought by implacable enemies of Israel. Cases that would be rejected by the courts of other nations have been pursued by the Israeli Supreme Court. In fact in some nations, if an individual brings to the courts cases that are accepted for investigation in Israel, said individual would be lucky to get shot right on the spot.
    Last edited by Castellano; 21 Sep 09,, 17:25.
    L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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    • #17
      NPR did a piece on this. They did an interview with Justice Goldstone and one with an Israeli government spokesperson. Some of the points that the good Justice Goldstone made seemed frankly ludicrous.

      It appears that Israel has a policy of sending out warnings to people living in Palestinian(or other non-israeli) residential areas is a strike is planned in that area, so as to give civilians a time to evacuate. Then he complained that there were times when a warning had been issued and then no strike was made. And I was thinking, err what?

      How he construed this to be a "grave matter", I never got around to understanding.
      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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      • #18
        Cry Wolf once too often.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Castellano View Post
          And remember, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these Wars was started by the Arabs. This, aside from the relentless terrorist campaigns launched by Arabs, which in some cases amounted to quasi-Wars, like the first & second intifadas.

          Interesting that during that same time, some 11 million Muslims have been killed in wars and terror attacks - mostly at the hands of other Muslims.
          Those are inconvenient facts to those who would equate Israel with the terrorist groups and hostile countries that it's been fighting for decades.
          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Cry Wolf once too often.
            I got that part, but isn't that somewhat frivolous to be uttered in the same breath as "War Crimes"?

            By the way, I don't know if this is normal pratice for operating in civilian areas but the whole concept of giving advance notice for strikes seems at odds with the objective of trying to get anything useful done. The baddies you want to get rid off will surely flee with the rest of the civilian population?
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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            • #21
              The effect is the same. The bad guys are no longer in the area either they left or got killed. The "arguement" is that once the Israelis cry wolf once too often, neither the bad guys nor the civies leave ... and the Israelis are counting on that, well, at least the bad guys not leaving.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                I honestly don't know if the Israelis claim it - I do.
                Those were Olmert's words.

                Israel is most certainly one of the countries with a better record ever.

                It's very easy, try to name three countries with a better record of respect for human rights in the conduct of War.
                I don't know who has a "better" record than Israel, but at the same time, I don't know how Israel's record is "better" than all other countries. I would say most democratic nations follow those laws, other than that, I can't say what scale you would measure by. Heck, I could very easily say India has the best record of respect for human rights in the conduct of war.

                Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                You might want to check some facts:

                Some 62,000 people (40,000 Arabs, 22,000 Jews) have been killed in all the Israeli-Arab wars and Palestinian terror attacks.

                The Wars include:

                # The 1948–49 War
                # The 1956 War
                # The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)
                # The War of Attrition (1967 to 1970)
                # The Yom Kippur War
                # The 1982 War

                And remember, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these Wars was started by the Arabs. This, aside from the relentless terrorist campaigns launched by Arabs, which in some cases amounted to quasi-Wars, like the first & second intifadas.
                And the Israelis won those wars, and therefore deservedly achieved some major territorial gains. That doesn't mean that constantly invading Lebanon or Palestine is, or has ever solved your problem. And before jumping the gun, you may notice, I was referring to a previous poster's claims of Israeli "constraint". I'm the last person who would want to be painting the Israelis as the bad guys, I appreciate some of Israel's feats it has pulled against terrorism. But, the other side has a point too and killing a 1000 civilians in less than a month hardly means you have achieved anything in the long run, other than more enmity.

                Interesting that during that same time, some 11 million Muslims have been killed in wars and terror attacks - mostly at the hands of other Muslims.


                Have a look here:

                Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls
                I have never hinted that the Islamic world doesn't have a problem. They have problems ranging all the way from Africa to Europe to South East Asia.
                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                  You might want to check some facts:

                  Some 62,000 people (40,000 Arabs, 22,000 Jews) have been killed in all the Israeli-Arab wars and Palestinian terror attacks.

                  The Wars include:

                  # The 1948–49 War
                  # The 1956 War
                  # The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)
                  # The War of Attrition (1967 to 1970)
                  # The Yom Kippur War
                  # The 1982 War

                  And remember, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these Wars was started by the Arabs. This, aside from the relentless terrorist campaigns launched by Arabs, which in some cases amounted to quasi-Wars, like the first & second intifadas.

                  Interesting that during that same time, some 11 million Muslims have been killed in wars and terror attacks - mostly at the hands of other Muslims.


                  Have a look here:

                  Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls
                  Wasn't the Six Day War started by the Israelis?
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                    Wasn't the Six Day War started by the Israelis?

                    No it wasn't.

                    The aggression was started by Egypt when it closed the Straits of Tiran and kicked out the UNEF from the Sinai. Both these actions were Acts of War.

                    Then Israel took the initiative.
                    L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                      No it wasn't.

                      The aggression was started by Egypt when it closed the Straits of Tiran and kicked out the UNEF from the Sinai. Both these actions were Acts of War.

                      Then Israel took the initiative.
                      Yep, pre-emptive strike that took out much of the Arab air forces (including Egypt's Tu-16s) on the tarmac.

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                      • #26
                        Read Amazon.com: Strike Zion!: William Stevenson: Books

                        great stuff on 6 day war

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          I don't know who has a "better" record than Israel, but at the same time, I don't know how Israel's record is "better" than all other countries. I would say most democratic nations follow those laws, other than that, I can't say what scale you would measure by. Heck, I could very easily say India has the best record of respect for human rights in the conduct of war.
                          This is actually an interesting question.

                          The criteria I set is the respect of Human Rights facing comparable threats to ones security - that includes the respect of Human Rights in the conduct of War.

                          From that point of view, no, India doesn't make it.

                          Now, this criteria is arguable. I suspect (though I'm not sure) some WAB members like Mihais (where is he BTW, haven't read from him lately) would disagree with such criteria. But what is true is that the criticism laid on Israel is based in its supposedly poor record relating Human Rights, which is a total lie. The truth is exactly the opposite.



                          And the Israelis won those wars, and therefore deservedly achieved some major territorial gains. That doesn't mean that constantly invading Lebanon or Palestine is, or has ever solved your problem. And before jumping the gun, you may notice, I was referring to a previous poster's claims of Israeli "constraint". I'm the last person who would want to be painting the Israelis as the bad guys, I appreciate some of Israel's feats it has pulled against terrorism. But, the other side has a point too and killing a 1000 civilians in less than a month hardly means you have achieved anything in the long run, other than more enmity.
                          I disagree. They have achieved a lot of quiet from Gaza. I also disagree with other members of WAB who argue they Israel should have gone all the way and decapitate HAMAS. From the info available I think what Israel did was about right.

                          And the 1000 "civilians" figure is just what HAMAS says.

                          It doesn't matter, every single civilian death is to be blamed on HAMAS, see the "Gaza War Crimes" thread for deeper debate.



                          I have never hinted that the Islamic world doesn't have a problem. They have problems ranging all the way from Africa to Europe to South East Asia.
                          I just cite the number of deaths to contextualize. By themselves, they don't prove anything.

                          But they are remarkably low for so many Wars and decades of violence. One just needs to look at the number of deaths resulted from intra-Muslim conflicts.
                          L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Castellano View Post
                            This is actually an interesting question.
                            They have achieved a lot of quiet from Gaza. I also disagree with other members of WAB who argue they Israel should have gone all the way and decapitate HAMAS. From the info available I think what Israel did was about right.
                            Peace has not worked, force has. Peace will not work if palestine continues to represented by terrorists.

                            Force trumps diplomacy

                            Originally posted by Castellano View Post

                            And the 1000 "civilians" figure is just what HAMAS says.

                            It doesn't matter, every single civilian death is to be blamed on HAMAS, see the "Gaza War Crimes" thread for deeper debate.
                            Number of deaths should not matter. In the latest case the Gazans are responsible for war by virtue of rocket attacks. When HAMAS represents the Gazans (by democracy or otherwise) then both collectively are responsible if war is initiated by HAMAS. IMHO when it comes to war there is no difference between HAMAS & Gaza. So it makes absolutely no sense in arguing over civilian casualties when you are fighting a WAR. Peace-time is a different story altogether.
                            Last edited by pChan; 03 Nov 09,, 05:37.

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