The Kashmir Problem

[kuku]

Can you please explain that?.

I yield on the poverty point may be I shouldn't have phrased the debate on economic development. India is doing fine what I wanted to say was compromise in kashmir will increase prosperity though it seems not to the extent that may make a difference in Indian strategic thinking (or so I feel).

All the problems you list are the results of several causes (illiteracy, economic policies, religious extremists etc.)

And none of them is related to the topic.

The only way to get a us to give up land is to throw us out.

[pChan]

All the problems you list are the results of several causes (illiteracy, economic policies, religious extremists etc.)

I listed two poverty & religious polarization. I agree with you in general.

And none of them is related to the topic.

They are but tangentially.

The only way to get a us to give up land is to throw us out.

So you absolutely see no benefit with a compromise? India's security environment(internal & external) would be vastly better with pak off its back. That is the most critical point. You don't seem to acknowledge that. An environment with trade with pak would benefit India. That doesn't seem to matter much either. But a piece of land (which we won't give up but share) does.

[calass]

So you absolutely see no benefit with a compromise? India's security environment(internal & external) would be vastly ith pak off its back. That is the most critical point. You don't seem to acknowledge that. An environment with trade with pak would benefit India. That doesn't seem to matter much either. But a piece of land (which we won't give up but share) does.

Nope...India does not need trade with Pakistan..atleast not as much as the Kashmir valley and the water there.
As as I said before,Pakistan cannot keep this up forever,India can and is actually doing very well after 20 years of insurgency while Pakistan has slipped more and more backwards.Why change the status quo?

If India shows weakness in Kashmir,next some other muslim majority area will ask for autonomy,the northeast will ask for autonomy.It is a slippery path to go on with ZERO benefit.Why give Pakistan a life line when they are in trouble.

[antimony]

So you absolutely see no benefit with a compromise? India's security environment(internal & external) would be vastly better with pak off its back. That is the most critical point. You don't seem to acknowledge that. An environment with trade with pak would benefit India. That doesn't seem to matter much either. But a piece of land (which we won't give up but share) does.

It is also the fundamental disconnect here. You seem to hold the position that Pakistan will get off our backs if we settle Kashmir. We hold the view that they would not, and would use Kashmir to launch further moves to destabilize India, alongwith China. For all previous attempts at building trust they have responded by hurting us (Kargil, Parliamentary attacks, 2006 Bombay blasts, 26/11).

Even if they do not do it on their own, China may certainly goad them on. One the most respected member of this forum, a Canadian L.Col and long time PLA watcher once remarked that the "Chinese would fight India to the last Pakistani"

We laughed of that remark when it was said. We take it very seriously now.

To sum up, your faith that "sharing" Kashmir with Pakistan would necessarily improve India's security situation is misplaced

[Luke Gu]

To sum up, your faith that "sharing" Kashmir with Pakistan would necessarily improve India's security situation is misplaced

I don't know if it's right "sharing" Kashmir。But if you can solve the land dispute with Pak，I don't think it's unhelpful to improve India's security situation。

"Chinese would fight India to the last Pakistani"

Can you tell me how China fight India to the last Pakistani，Just send PLA into the war between India and Pak？

Even if they do not do it on their own, China may certainly goad them on.

How you get this idea？China want to have a prosperous Pak ，not just know fight to India 。

We hold the view that they would not, and would use Kashmir to launch further moves to destabilize India

Can you tell me what you two nations fight for？Why would Pak use Kashmir to launch further moves to destabilize India？

[payeng]

Can you tell me why they refuse to discuss the issue？

currently, the Mumbai 26/11 issue is in air, more over other issues are their like providing safe homage for terrorist leaders, gangsters and institutions that supports and assist regional separatists groups in India.

India can put forward a peace initiative only when the are ready to act in the same way. Current position is that the peace process would benefit Pakistan while they would continue to preach anti-India propaganda.

Hey ，Do not be too exaggerated！Are you talking about Islamic Jihad or Pak goverment？

Actually both, as for example regular Pakistani soilders were found in Kargil war, while Pakistan denied it at that time, even refusing the corpses.

They always take the stand that they only provides moral support to them but time have shown that Pakistani institution providing active and direct support to them. Now since an institution of a state is meant to serve for the cause of the government you can come to a conclusion, but they always deny it and say it as individual actions, as the same way like the Kargil issue. So now it depends upon individual to individual to come to a conclusion that is it the government? or the people of the government? or an ideology at large.

[antimony]

Reply to Luke Gu

Luke,

All of your questions have been discussed many times on this board, so you do your research at your own leisure.

As for your contention about what China wants for Pakistan, you should know that during the 1986 stand off with India, the PLA was ordered to open a front through Pakistan using the 15 Airborne Corps, without informing GOP.

That should tell you what view the Chinese have of Pakistan

[Luke Gu]

currently, the Mumbai 26/11 issue is in air, more over other issues are their like providing safe homage for terrorist leaders, gangsters and institutions that supports and assist regional separatists groups in India.

I don't think you've understand what I have said。I mean they refuse to the peace talk maybe because Pakistanis think the whole Kashmir belong to Pak，so the goverment face huge pressure about it。The fact is Pak is smaller than India，no matter by war or peace talk，she can't get the whole Kashmir。So no matter what the goverment will choose ，she will offend the ordinary Pakistanis。The best way maybe is onto this problem to the next goverment。So I don't think Pak goverment is Irrational。To what you say ，I think other Muslim nations also have this problem。So，don't think it's just Pak goverment‘s crazy action。And now ，it seems the Pak Government and Jihad don't have a happy time because of The war on terror。

They always take the stand that they only provides moral support to them but time have shown that Pakistani institution providing active and direct support to them.

I can't find any Peculiarities：many nations do such despicable things。

they always deny it and say it as individual actions,

So the goverment isn't mad。And what do you want from her？I think it's better than Pak
Government openly admitted that this was an act of state to both nations。

[Luke Gu]

All of your questions have been discussed many times on this board, so you do your research at your own leisure.

I don't really want to ask these questions。They're just Chinese-style rhetorical questions，I have been aware of the mistakes I’ve made，but frankly speaking，I don't know how to write English rhetorical questions now。I have my answers about these questions but I can feel that our answers are different。

[pChan]

We hold the view that they would not, and would use Kashmir to launch further moves to destabilize India

Can you tell me what you two nations fight for？Why would Pak use Kashmir to launch further moves to destabilize India？

Right now I would say pak fights for kashmir. They consider kashmir issue at the heart of their "national interest". With kashmir gone I wonder what pak leaders would have to sell "antagonism" to India to their masses. Also to keep in mind that any detente should involve pak public opinion. If great majority believe settlement as unfair I don't think settlement will be possible even musharaf said that pak public had to prepared in response to the proposal of "chenab formula".

[Luke Gu]

With kashmir gone I wonder what pak leaders would have to sell "antagonism" to India to their masses.

So am I。So if both nation can solve it，the peace between Pak and India maybe come true。

[pChan]

Even if they do not do it on their own, China may certainly goad them on. One the most respected member of this forum, a Canadian L.Col and long time PLA watcher once remarked that the "Chinese would fight India to the last Pakistani"

We laughed of that remark when it was said. We take it very seriously now.

To sum up, your faith that "sharing" Kashmir with Pakistan would necessarily improve India's security situation is misplaced


As for your contention about what China wants for Pakistan, you should know that during the 1986 stand off with India, the PLA was ordered to open a front through Pakistan using the 15 Airborne Corps, without informing GOP.

That should tell you what view the Chinese have of Pakistan

I know what OoE said. The way I see it pakistan & India are in a state of active hostility/war. If china is to go for war with India tagging along with pak seems a natural choice.

"destabilize" means islamic jihad on India. China itself is wary of this jihad thing & I remember reading xinhui's post that the punjab chief minister was instructed by china that pak should make peace with India after 26/11.

If it comes to war pak will align with china bcoz it would serve its interests vis-a-vis kashmir. With kashmir out of picture you need to have a damn convincing reason for pak to do that. Nobody in this board seems to give me that reason. But I reckon the biggest problem may be what defines "kashmir out of the picture".

[payeng]

I don't think you've understand what I have said。

You have asked a question or you have said something?

I mean they refuse to the peace talk maybe because Pakistanis think the whole Kashmir belong to Pak，so the goverment face huge pressure about it。

Further progress about Kashmir issue is yet to be discussed, so it would be too early to come to a conclusion, AFAIK Pakistan now-a-days support for an independent sovereign state of Kashmir, so the issue is not as you perceive. But their real intention is to make India weak by any means, so that their perceived threat lessens.

The fact is Pak is smaller than India，no matter by war or peace talk，she can't get the whole Kashmir。

Here comes the point, so they use nasty undercover methods because they cannot counter India in a conventional way.

I again repeat Kashmir is only an excuse for Pakistan, they would like to see a weak India in its neighbour.

So no matter what the goverment will choose ，she will offend the ordinary Pakistanis。The best way maybe is onto this problem to the next goverment。So I don't think Pak goverment is Irrational。To what you say ，I think other Muslim nations also have this problem。So，don't think it's just Pak goverment‘s crazy action。

Which muslim nation are you talking about, Iraq, Iran, Afganishtan? not all muslim nations are in a state of crisis like that of Pakistan.

I am not stating any particular ordinary Pakistani neither the government system, what I mean to say is the Ideology that some particular Islamic leaders use to rule by or is being ruled upon, ultimately infecting the other who is being ruled by the so called religious leaders.

And now ，it seems the Pak Government and Jihad don't have a happy time because of The war on terror。

As you sow so shall you reap

I can't find any Peculiarities：many nations do such despicable things。
So the goverment isn't mad。And what do you want from her？I think it's better than Pak
Government openly admitted that this was an act of state to both nations。

so now do you really think peace talks would be any beneficial for India?

[Luke Gu]

AFAIK Pakistan now-a-days support for an independent sovereign state of Kashmir

Do you agree Pak own the whole Kashmir without a war？ As long as the majority of people agreed to join Pakistan in Kashmir，I think Pak take a wise action。At first make Kashmir become a new nation，then unite it peacefully。I think it's easier than have a war with India。And even if the unite is fail，I think still it's more favorable to Pakistan。

But their real intention is to make India weak by any means, so that their perceived threat lessens.

Still that question：why you become enemy？I don't think Pak will feel a strong India is a threat if you become friends。So maybe it's Pak‘s idea now，but The idea is not can not be changed。

Here comes the point, so they use nasty undercover methods because they cannot counter India in a conventional way.

Yes，we know Pak is Disadvantage in a conventional way，so please tell me why she choose this way to fight India？

Which muslim nation are you talking about, Iraq, Iran, Afganishtan?

The muslim nation who have stronger enemy。Even in Saudi also have persons do those things。

I am not stating any particular ordinary Pakistani neither the government system, what I mean to say is the Ideology that some particular Islamic leaders use to rule by or is being ruled upon, ultimately infecting the other who is being ruled by the so called religious leaders.

I don't think it just exist in Pak。

so now do you really think peace talks would be any beneficial for India?

Can you tell me what India can do will be Beneficial to India In addition to peace talks？

[antimony]

If it comes to war pak will align with china bcoz it would serve its interests vis-a-vis kashmir. With kashmir out of picture you need to have a damn convincing reason for pak to do that. Nobody in this board seems to give me that reason. But I reckon the biggest problem may be what defines "kashmir out of the picture".

Damn convincing reason for what? Even with Kashmir out of the picture, what stops Pakistan from arming gangs like ULFA, the naxalites or whatever? And what makes you think they would own up to doing anything like that? They are certainly not owning up for 26/11. They did not even own up for Kargil until much later. Its all non-state actors nowadays.

Not that they have a shortage of reasons. Expect them to bring up everything from Godhra and Babri Masjid to keep things difficult for India.

And all this without even discusing the fact that you have handed them a huge tactical advantage by giving them entry into the valley. China has an open road into India