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Thread: The Kashmir Problem

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer View Post
    It does. A big change in fact. It will prove the extreme right wing argument that you cannot live peacefully with muslims. It will prove their argument that, the day the muslim minority becomes majority, you will need to secede a part of your country to the most proximate muslim nation and risk having the Hindu minority driven our of their homes at gun point.

    It will confirm our worst fears and it would change our secular character forever and god knows what next.

    In fact, a friend of mine told me once that when he asked a retired Indian army officer why we are still fighting for Kashmir instead of letting it loose, he said that he does not have any objection of granting freedom to Kashmir , as long as the whole Indian muslim population is moved out to Pakistan.

    I don't buy it. Right wing loonies succeed best in whipping up hatred when India is threatened by islamicts in pakistan (terrorism etc). It does not affect the poor hindus (their concerns are far more existential) but sways the middle class (by polarizing our society) and the right wing factions end up getting the "security" vote. Even though the last federal elections disproved this point the growth of Indian middle class means that the above point is not entirely invalid. Muslims in kashmir whether they live under Joint admin or under complete control also does not count much in my view. Indian polity will not be affected negatively - and thats what counts to me the most. Failure to act does in ways I explained above. Military interests/perspectives may differ but ultimately "national interests" should be redefined to take this into account.

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Question to PChan

    I am still not clear what exactly you mean by Joint Administration and why it would be better than an alternate solution of say, formalizing the LOC as the Border. what other examples around the world do we have of successful Joint Administration of disputed areas?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    And I too want to know why pChan is not including the option of the whole of Kashmir being part of India ...
    IMO .. that is the best solution to this problem.

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghatotkacha View Post
    And I too want to know why pChan is not including the option of the whole of Kashmir being part of India ...
    IMO .. that is the best solution to this problem.
    I personally disagree with that, a nightmarish scenario especially with the changed demographics.

    But PChan's solution of allowing Pakistan a hand at Joint Administration, well...
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I am still not clear what exactly you mean by Joint Administration and why it would be better than an alternate solution of say, formalizing the LOC as the Border.
    What I mean is both India & pakistan have a stake in that territory. I am quoting the following points from some pak forum....... It may serve as some form of a template.



    1.The president of kashmir is rotated every year between the indian and pakistan president.

    2.All three flags flown on public buildings.

    3.Kashmir to have no military-foreign postions......the kashmiri wishes are represented through the indian-pak embassies.

    4.elected memebers of the kashmir parliment are represented in the pak-india parliments.

    5.People with pakistani-indian passports keep the same documentation but are issued a kashmir citizen card.

    6.merge two police forces.
    Specifics can wait - only acceptability of the general idea matters. The question is will the idea take-off?

    Formalizing the LOC seems to be a problem with pak. The only way it would succeed is pak opening up its territory to kashmiris wanting "freedom" & formalizing the border. It is a lot less complicated and makes sense but I am not sure it would be acceptable to pak given its current posture.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    what other examples around the world do we have of successful Joint Administration of disputed areas?
    I can't think of a modern example but I have heard of the concept of "protectorates" in colonial times. Probably a re-hashed version of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghatotkacha View Post
    And I too want to know why pChan is not including the option of the whole of Kashmir being part of India ...
    IMO .. that is the best solution to this problem.
    No problemo it is also an option. But unless the state of pakistan ceases to exist I just don't see how it will be a solution let alone a best solution.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    But PChan's solution of allowing Pakistan a hand at Joint Administration, well...
    Antimony ... well as long as we are discussing outlandish scenarios ... why not add one more ) ...

    Here's another one ... hand over the Kashmir valley to the UN ... a governor will be voted for by the general assembly who will then be ratified by the security council. This governor will be responsible for running the administration of the Kashmir valley ..
    see .. easy solution .. neither India nor pakistan get the valley ... everybody happy ...

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pChan View Post
    No problemo it is also an option. But unless the state of pakistan ceases to exist I just don't see how it will be a solution let alone a best solution.
    The way things are going on in pakistan ... I wouldn't be too surprised if the state of Pakistan ceases to exist in the next couple of decades ... hence I say .. this is the best solution

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghatotkacha View Post
    Here's another one ... hand over the Kashmir valley to the UN ... a governor will be voted for by the general assembly who will then be ratified by the security council. This governor will be responsible for running the administration of the Kashmir valley ..
    see .. easy solution .. neither India nor pakistan get the valley ... everybody happy ...
    This involves exclusion of both countries from the region. Both nations seem to against any form of Independence to kashmir. Though pak may agree to this temporarily as this would be better than status quo.

  10. #25
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pChan View Post
    What I mean is both India & pakistan have a stake in that territory. I am quoting the following points from some pak forum....... It may serve as some form of a template.

    Specifics can wait - only acceptability of the general idea matters. The question is will the idea take-off?

    Formalizing the LOC seems to be a problem with pak. The only way it would succeed is pak opening up its territory to kashmiris wanting "freedom" & formalizing the border. It is a lot less complicated and makes sense but I am not sure it would be acceptable to pak given its current posture.
    So basically India needs to accept Pakistani involvement in the Indian held Kashmir, while Pakistan is not willing to accept the current status quo as the final solution precisely because they would then have no involvement on this side. that arguement of not allowing Kashmiris into its territory is hogwash. Pakistan would prefer Kashmir as a province rather than as a neighbour. those dams they are planning should give you a clue.

    Forget the specifics, even a general acceptability is crazy, and this is without even considering India's territorial claim of Kashmir.

    Pakistan manages to help not just Kashmir, but also other insurgent groups within India. There is no certainty they will not continue to do that, as a stable secular India is an anathema to their existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by pChan View Post
    I can't think of a modern example but I have heard of the concept of "protectorates" in colonial times. Probably a re-hashed version of that.
    That should give you a clue. "Joint" administration of anything between anyone has always been a problem. Each side would try to shift responsibilities and corner the resources.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  11. #26
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghatotkacha View Post
    Antimony ... well as long as we are discussing outlandish scenarios ... why not add one more ) ...

    Here's another one ... hand over the Kashmir valley to the UN ... a governor will be voted for by the general assembly who will then be ratified by the security council. This governor will be responsible for running the administration of the Kashmir valley ..
    see .. easy solution .. neither India nor pakistan get the valley ... everybody happy ...
    Yes, since the UN has been so spectacularly efficient and effective in everything it does

    Administering a landlocked area with a difficult terrain between 2 bellicose neighbours would be such a piece of cake
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Yes, since the UN has been so spectacularly efficient and effective in everything it does

    Administering a landlocked area with a difficult terrain between 2 bellicose neighbours would be such a piece of cake
    Antimony ... man you don't like the UN .. OK how about NATO?
    No ... Ok .. how about SAARC ?

    I mean man for god's sake ... don't you see that any other option except the current one is what this thread is all about? Put on your thinking hat man and try to think outside the box .. and please don't bother with the specifics ... as the OP said .. they can wait ... after all since when do details matter ...
    So quit whining and get on with the program (you might want to take a couple of shots of whatever the OP has been imbibing to see things his way)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pChan View Post
    Only the kashmir valley not the rest of J&K (like Ladakh or Jammu).
    What would be the reason to exclude rest of the territory which constituted the region that constituted the state before independence?

    I suppose such a move will have to follow a acceptance of the existing actual line of control as the nations border by PRC, Pakistan and India.
    Last edited by kuku; 10 Sep 09, at 20:03.
    cheers

  14. #29
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghatotkacha View Post
    Antimony ... man you don't like the UN .. OK how about NATO?
    No ... Ok .. how about SAARC ?

    I mean man for god's sake ... don't you see that any other option except the current one is what this thread is all about? Put on your thinking hat man and try to think outside the box .. and please don't bother with the specifics ... as the OP said .. they can wait ... after all since when do details matter ...
    So quit whining and get on with the program (you might want to take a couple of shots of whatever the OP has been imbibing to see things his way)
    Yes I agree SAARC is a wonderful idea

    Specific do not matter, we should focus on just getting along
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Yes I agree SAARC is a wonderful idea

    Specific do not matter, we should focus on just getting along
    See ... you are getting around to the idea ... now sing with me
    "kumbaya .... "

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