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Thread: The Kashmir Problem

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisakhani View Post
    Gunner sahib,
    If members from your country stop their rhetorics of dividing Pakistan on ethnic basis and control spitting venom..
    how can you regulate people's feelings?

    if people feel they are more sindhi than pakistani, is india responsible?

    if people feel their ethnic or tribal loyalties are as or even more important than their religion, is india responsible?

    if bengalis wanted to kick you guys out, is india responsible?

    pakistan was created on a dubious basis and on dubious logic. end of story.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Gu View Post
    Sir,I think we're talking about Religious country,not civilisation。Every civilisation has its wonderful place,especially these religion civilisation which has exsited for a long time。And I will criticize one nation's people not a civilisation。And don't forget that :India has the second largest population of Muslim。
    Thats what i said...if you want to see your country as a solely religious state ..fine nobody's complaining but what sucks is when you want to see other countries with the eyes of religion only.India has the second largest muslim population and no body has any problem with it........what i say is no one should be advicing us to separate on the basis of religion and ethnicity.

  3. #213
    Senior Contributor Luke Gu's Avatar
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    .what i say is no one should be advicing us to separate on the basis of religion and ethnicity.
    Then can you tell me why Pakistan is independent from India?Can you tell me what's the standard of Land division between India and Pakistan?Do the Kashmir problem will exist if UK Clearly stated it belong to India or Pakistan?Yes,it's wrong to advice us to separate on the basis of religion and ethnicity,but it's meaningles to the Kashmir problem。

  4. #214
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Gu View Post
    Then can you tell me why Pakistan is independent from India?Can you tell me what's the standard of Land division between India and Pakistan?Do the Kashmir problem will exist if UK Clearly stated it belong to India or Pakistan?Yes,it's wrong to advice us to separate on the basis of religion and ethnicity,but it's meaningles to the Kashmir problem。
    Think you missed the point. Pakistan is used as an example as to why it is such a bad idea to divide along those lines. And no, it is not meaningless to the Kashmir problem, since Kashmir is integrated into the Indian Union. They have their own government, own parliament, own leaders, who are part of that system. The Kashmiri separatists can freely stand in Kashmiri elections, but that they choose to boycott them, and that is not our problem. They wish to play with the bullet rather than the ballot, so be it. We can play that game too.
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  5. #215
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    I'm rather pessimistic about the Kashmir problem. People better accept the status quo there. Just like all other border conflicts. But we are talking about dealing with hindu-muslim conflicts here. Not just a dispute between two nations. All religions want to expand, Islam probably more so. And just by the look of the borders of Islam, not a whole lot of peaceful ones.

  6. #216
    Senior Contributor Luke Gu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    I'm rather pessimistic about the Kashmir problem. People better accept the status quo there. Just like all other border conflicts. But we are talking about dealing with hindu-muslim conflicts here. Not just a dispute between two nations. All religions want to expand, Islam probably more so. And just by the look of the borders of Islam, not a whole lot of peaceful ones.
    The problem is that this forum don't have enough Pakistanis 。So this discussion is Incomplete。

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisakhani View Post
    Gunner sahib,
    If members from your country stop their rhetorics of dividing Pakistan on ethnic basis and control spitting venom.Nobody would want to open old chapters.But I have met some old timers from Amritsar and Jullander in Nova Scotia and Ontario who still think of Khalistan.Remember if we are divided there will be a chain reaction.
    They are absconding and they better don't show up here anytime soon. Punjab is an integral part of India and WE won't spare anybody trying to think otherwise, Pakistanis or them, whatever.
    India sits on multiple ethnic and religious groups
    that could catch fire.
    Stop daydreaming Sir. Ask any Bengali, Punjabi, Bihari, Kannad, Oriya, Marathi ........ and find me ONE who wants to breakaway from India.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Your posts, Sir, are getting more and more incoherent.

    You want to debate about Kashmir, that's fine, I understand that as a Pakistani your POV would be different from me and most other Indians.

    But how in the world are you qualified to talk about the Dravidian ethnic group, Sikhs living in Canada and Sikkim? Do your books from English Authors and your library notes from 1991 advise you on that?

    How many "ethnic dravidians" do you know or have worked with? How many Indian Sikhs do you know, for that matter? And Sikkim, what about Sikkim?

    And we really don't need your advice about how we need to use our energies. If push comes to a shove we can continue handling Kashmir indefinitely; where as your economy will falter if not supported financially by your friends.

    And by the way, how in the world does Mao and Confucius come into all of this?
    I know of many Nepalis in Sikkim who are glad to be a part of India, and that although they are ethnically Nepalis, emphatically state they are Indian by Nationality. The Nepalis of Darjeeling want to separate from Bengal though and want to form a new state within the Indian federation...

    I have no idea about the Gorkhaland movement, but my two cents>>> Why not just merge the Nepali parts of West Bengal e.g. Darjeeling with the state of Sikkim? That would be the end of the problem, wouldn't it? And it just amounts to the re drawing of the state boundaries, nothing more. Could someone from India please educate me about the Gorkhaland movement? Is it true that the BJP was sympathetic to the Gorkhaland cause and that if it had won the national elections, the state of Gorkhaland would have been carved from WB?

  9. #219
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillWarrior View Post
    I know of many Nepalis in Sikkim who are glad to be a part of India, and that although they are ethnically Nepalis, emphatically state they are Indian by Nationality. The Nepalis of Darjeeling want to separate from Bengal though and want to form a new state within the Indian federation...

    I have no idea about the Gorkhaland movement, but my two cents>>> Why not just merge the Nepali parts of West Bengal e.g. Darjeeling with the state of Sikkim? That would be the end of the problem, wouldn't it? And it just amounts to the re drawing of the state boundaries, nothing more. Could someone from India please educate me about the Gorkhaland movement? Is it true that the BJP was sympathetic to the Gorkhaland cause and that if it had won the national elections, the state of Gorkhaland would have been carved from WB?
    I am a Bengali and I personally do not see any issues with granting Gorkhas at Darjeeling statehood, with or without Sikkim; I think both sides are being too pigheaded about it anyway. However, given that the experience with the autonomous DGHC does not seem to be either spectacularly successfull or free of corruption, I do not thing independent statehood would be the panacea people are looking for.

    But at least they will get their own to blame.

    As it is the current WB govt. has a lot to worry about.
    Last edited by antimony; 15 Nov 09, at 18:36.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  10. #220
    Contributor axeman's Avatar
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    The actual Kashmir problem..

    Infiltration bid foiled; two Army jawans killed in J&K?s Kupwara district - India - The Times of India

    Two Army jawans were killed while foiling an infiltration bid by militants from across the border in Keran sector of North Kashmir's
    Kupwara district, a defence spokesman said on Monday.

    Troops noticed suspicious movement along the Line of Control in Keran Sector, 167 km from Srinagar, last night and challenged them.

    However, the heavily-armed militants opened fire killing two army jawans.

    Troops returned the fire and the gunbattle was going on when last reports came in.
    :(

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Gu View Post
    Then can you tell me why Pakistan is independent from India?。
    1. british imperialists saw the indian society as consisting of religious communities.The political system, they built in india was based on that world view and also designed to their interests.the British relentlessly followed a tactic of "divide and rule" as they wanted to perpetuate british rule.

    2. The muslim elite in india also followed a seperate political path almost for a century by having the view "british will save us from hindu domination" right from 1857 to 1947 . Hence the majority of muslims were largely divorced from the politcal and nationalist path followed by other indians.

    In the freedom struggle against the britsh ,some muslims particpated .but other muslims were either indifferent or hostile not knowing whether its better to have "hindu rule" instead of a british rule . Though some muslims increasingly distanced themselves from this seperatist approach , they never captured the mass politcal support. the full extent of this long term negative approach was pakistan. The party that led the pakistani movement was the muslim league. it was a official consolidation of separatist muslim elites and the british played a major role in its formation in 1906 because they faced a huge revolt over a controversial decision a year earlier.

    The muslim elite while facing the possbility of british exit of india concluded that they have much to lose in "hindu rule" and started raising a seperatist cry based on the old,proven "islam in danger" call.

    All this led to the huge disaster in 1947 called partition and it has left scars for the rest of the century. Many Muslims remaining in india started integrating themselves with other indians only from 1947 onwards.


    3. the main trigger for partition was that the congress party(which led india to independence and desgiend the entire indian poltical system) and the muslim league (which started winning the mass support of many muslims from 1937 onwards) could not come to a political agreement. personal enmity between leaders like nehru and jinnah played a role as well.

    Its not surprising in hindsight when you see the hostility between the islamic world and west today. Most muslims even today only think interms of an islamic state and sharia.it is entirely hostile to multicultural secular democracies in many aspects.

    kashmir too is a symptom of this problem.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartGuy View Post
    Once again you are evading my point. The terrorist convicted under the trail were convicted under violations of the Neutrality Act, not for directly conspiracing to attack america, which once again proves my point. Just a question are you advocating America to tow india's foreign policy? America already has a defined objective for which we are fighting in afghanistan, further inflating al-qaeda for what its not truly isnt necessary.
    He was part of a group which conspired to attack American troops in Afghanistan, as well as advocating war on the USA.

    Islamic scholar convicted of advocating war on US - The Boston Globe


    Of course pakistan supported it and continues to support it today,all the while the indian military arnt any angels, how many reports do I need to bring up about indian army attrocities in kashmir? if the local kashmiris view your army as foreigners in their own country that has something to say about how good india's counter-insurgency policy is. The population in the valley has always been hostile to india, and in some aspects in recent years turned hostile towards pakistan. I dont think kashmir joining neither country or gaining independance is viable since I doubt it would last long surrounded by 3 major nuclear powers, but what both sides need to do is get to the table so that pakistan can divert its military resources to fight the real battle in the western front (which they have done pretty well up until now).
    On what basis do you say that the population has always been hostile to India?

    I bet to disagree, political solutions are also needed not just economic ones. One prime example is afghanistan which has been blessed with billions upon billion of taxpayers money, yet the situation continues to get worse. America in a few years realized that it is necessary to talk to the taliban for a long-term viable solution, something the indians havnt discovered in more than 5 decades. The Pakistani side remains peaceful because, they havnt integrated kashmir into their national structure as much as the indians have done, infact indian occupied kashmir is considered a state within india with a few priveleges, while pakistan occupied kashmir has its own Prime minister, cabinet, assembly, and so on.
    Kashmri is not Afghanistan. They have an elected government, for starters. Its pretty preposterous to compare Afghanistan (which in many ways is still stuck in the 19th century) to Kashmir.

    If you expect India to negotiate with foreign-sponsored militants over their own territory, then I think you are expecting the impossible.
    India is happy to negotiate with the separatist leaders, and have done so in the past, as long as they lay down their arms and do so peacefully. They are free to contest elections, but choose not to do so. Kashmir enjoys a high degree of autonomy as a state in any case.

    You have got to be joking when you say that the Pakistani side has more previliges. Perhaps you should read this document.

    UNHCR | Refworld | Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]
    Last edited by Flintlock; 18 Nov 09, at 02:30.

  13. #223
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    Let the Huriyat comes into vote politics by participating in democratic procedure of Jammu & kashmir of India.Only after that the blurred picture of J&K may become crystal clear......That's I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trikendas View Post
    Let the Huriyat comes into vote politics by participating in democratic procedure of Jammu & kashmir of India.Only after that the blurred picture of J&K may become crystal clear......That's I think.
    The Hurriyat will never participate in the elections, with ofcourse the excuse being "won't accept Indian constitution blah blah...."

    The fact is they know they will loose. One of the high profile Hurriyat chap recently participated in the elections and he came 3rd!

    So much of the "we represent Kashmir people"!

    All they have been doing is creating a few demonstration and stone throwing in the streets of Srinagar and think the whole Kashmir is in flames!

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by trikendas View Post
    Let the Huriyat comes into vote politics by participating in democratic procedure of Jammu & kashmir of India.Only after that the blurred picture of J&K may become crystal clear......That's I think.
    "Let" the Hurriyat ? They choose not to participate. They also advocate boycott's. Doesn't work though..

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