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  • #16
    Originally posted by nebula82 View Post
    They don't have to. In the world of geopolitics and power games democracies like the aforementioned two countries could come together and achieve common national security-related goals and interests.

    If not India - Taiwan, what about India - Japan forming an alliance? I think that is just as unlikely though. But correct me if I'm wrong the Indian and Japanese navies have interacted with each other in naval exercises in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific with other democratic countries, so they can take it from there.

    India needs to do something about China's continued encirclement and provocation. But the Indian establishment is too pacifist and passive that I've lost all hope in them.

    India’s biggest trump card over China is democracy, and they need to use that card.

    Sorry for straying off topic.

    Thanks,
    Nebula82.
    I just want to point out that generally the Chinese (includes Taiwanese) have an unfair but low opinion of Indians. So they would naturally be reluctant to depend on India for their survival. Also want to point out that Taiwanese probably hate Japan as much as the mainlanders. So a deal with India and Japan is out. As far as they are concerned, why should they swallow their pride and deal with Japan/India when USA is ready to protect them....
    Seek Save Serve Medic

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    • #17
      Originally posted by nebula82 View Post
      They don't have to. In the world of geopolitics and power games democracies like the aforementioned two countries could come together and achieve common national security-related goals and interests.
      We supported the "other" side when it mattered. India for some reason still holds on to a "One China policy" and till we ditch that I doubt the Taiwanese would have any truck with us. Commercial contact has grown though.

      Originally posted by nebula82 View Post
      If not India - Taiwan, what about India - Japan forming an alliance? I think that is just as unlikely though. But correct me if I'm wrong the Indian and Japanese navies have interacted with each other in naval exercises in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific with other democratic countries, so they can take it from there.
      Both Taiwan and Japan fall under the US umbrella anyway, I don't see what India can do to add more value, apart from harrassing the Chinese a bit.

      I think India would do better to cultivate better relaships with her neighbours. Thankfully for India, she now has better relations with SL, Bd and Nepal now.

      I am not sure how Indian democracy (which is a crazy mess most of the time) helps in countering China.
      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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      • #18
        Originally posted by nebula82 View Post
        They don't have to. In the world of geopolitics and power games democracies like the aforementioned two countries could come together and achieve common national security-related goals and interests.
        Taiwan does not meet the criteria for a democracy until 1996.

        Also during the Cold war the RoC was a US client and NAM not withstanding, India was a Soviet Client. This prevented fully developed ties as neither patron would want the other slipping into the others sphere.

        If not India - Taiwan, what about India - Japan forming an alliance? I think that is just as unlikely though. But correct me if I'm wrong the Indian and Japanese navies have interacted with each other in naval exercises in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific with other democratic countries, so they can take it from there.
        A very recent development only made possible by India sliding west on the geo-politcal scale.

        India needs to do something about China's continued encirclement and provocation. But the Indian establishment is too pacifist and passive that I've lost all hope in them.
        India is not encircled by China. By drawing close to the US India completed the encirclement of China. Likewise the GWOT has put Beijing's control of Islamabad in doubt as Pakistan has to please two masters.

        India’s biggest trump card over China is democracy, and they need to use that card.

        Sorry for straying off topic.

        Thanks,
        India's biggest trump is the softly spoken whisper that if China pushes to hard India will simply seek a formal alliance with the US. After that comes India's economic growth and threat to begin stealing factories from China, India's growing population (long term threat to China), and the straits of Malacca. India isn't in the best spoke vis a vis the PRC, but its not in the worst, not anywhere close to it. At the end of the day the strategic problems facing the PRC resemble a Bismarkian nightmare.

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        • #19
          have an unfair but low opinion of Indians.
          I have a friend who was a rather high ranking DPP official back in the days, he visited India and was not impressed by what he saw -- not because the keyword "unfair" you used, but because DPP promised to bring more equality to the poor (South Taiwanese) and India government failed to do so in his eyes.

          Most people in Taiwan voted for Chen not because his indpt stands but rather for his anti-corruption and populist message. My friend was an idealist and he has left the DPP.
          Last edited by xinhui; 02 Sep 09,, 01:29.
          “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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          • #20
            US India completed the encirclement of China
            Z,

            Can you defined encirclement of China for me? I don't see China being confronted at every turn.
            “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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            • #21
              Originally posted by antimony View Post
              We supported the "other" side when it mattered. India for some reason still holds on to a "One China policy" and till we ditch that I doubt the Taiwanese would have any truck with us. Commercial contact has grown though.
              Why dump "One China Policy"? It wouldn't do India's security interests one least bit of good. In fact, it should be the international precedent for Gilgit, Baltistan, Askai Chin (:))) and other occupied Indian territories - wouldn't you agree?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                Z,

                Can you defined encirclement of China for me? I don't see China being confronted at every turn.
                First there is a differance between confrontation and encirclement. As for encriclement

                US, Japan and India form a battleship grey wall that has the ability to choke China's economy and visit destruction on the coastal cities on a whim if its ever decided to use it. If push comes to shove South Korea, Vietnam, Australia and possibly the RoC get added to the list. China's only allies North Korea and Pakistan are nearly useless. Both are overmatched vs SouthKorea/US and India respectively.

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                • #23
                  and get what in return?

                  China is in most of the listed nations' largest trade partner and those nations have expressed no desire to get in to a fight. and no one in China wants to take the US head on.

                  Z, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. (and so is many in the US DOD)
                  Last edited by xinhui; 02 Sep 09,, 02:55.
                  “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cactus View Post
                    Why dump "One China Policy"? It wouldn't do India's security interests one least bit of good. In fact, it should be the international precedent for Gilgit, Baltistan, Askai Chin (:))) and other occupied Indian territories - wouldn't you agree?
                    To be brutally honest here, I think it is time for India to accept the LOC and move on. Too much at stake elsewhere to waste time and effort on the irretrievable and cantankerous piece of real estate.

                    Aksai Chin is a different matter

                    What close friendship with Taiwan would achieve is of course a different question
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                      Z,

                      Can you defined encirclement of China for me? I don't see China being confronted at every turn.
                      Xinhui,

                      China is not being confronted by anyone but she does face the situation of being surrounded by unfriendly neighbours - Russia, the Umbrella (SK and Japan), India and Vietnam.

                      Reasons for that scarcely be attributed to an India-US coalition, but it does mean that China needs to maintain an inordinately large force for her defence if things go south all around.

                      I can't see any of the allies getting together against China anytime soon though
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                        and get what in return?

                        China is in most of the listed nations' largest trade partner and those nations have expressed no desire to get in to a fight. and no one in China wants to take the US head on.
                        trade does not stop war, nor do nations only go to war for practical reasons. In 1938 France and Poland were Germany's biggest trading partners. In the early 19 century America traded with both France and England and got into shooting spats with both.

                        Also I stress that what amounts to an effective encirclement is being actively imposed as a threat to China. rather is is potential like gasoline is stored energy before its ignited. Should China overreach, the bones of a nasty encirclement need only fleshing out.


                        Z, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. (and so is many in the US DOD)
                        If you think the DoD does not have a room full of plans for dealing with China then yes disagree. Japan and India are both actively looking at China as their big strategic threat, you don't think the US is aware of those concerns and how to use them for its own gain?

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                        • #27



                          If you think the DoD does not have a room full of plans for dealing with China then yes disagree. Japan and India are both actively looking at China as their big strategic threat, you don't think the US is aware of those concerns and how to use them for its own gain?
                          at what point do they want to risk a MAD (economic come first, then the real MAD) Sure, US has enough nukes to waste the world, it is within US's power, go for it. I will drink my last scotch with you.

                          I do know that a closed China (before 1979) had fought more wars then a opened China. China took on the South Vietnamese navy while US look on in 1974.
                          Last edited by xinhui; 02 Sep 09,, 04:35.
                          “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Japan and India are both actively looking at China as their big strategic threat, you don't think the US is aware of those concerns and how to use them for its own gain?
                            Both are also looking at China, as well as the US, especially the US, as their immediate, if not distant, economic future.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                              I have a friend who was a rather high ranking DPP official back in the days, he visited India and was not impressed by what he saw -- not because the keyword "unfair" you used, but because DPP promised to bring more equality to the poor (South Taiwanese) and India government failed to do so in his eyes.

                              Most people in Taiwan voted for Chen not because his indpt stands but rather for his anti-corruption and populist message. My friend was an idealist and he has left the DPP.
                              Sir, isn't there income disparity even in China, so why was your friend surprised when he visited India.
                              Seek Save Serve Medic

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                                at what point do they want to risk a MAD (economic come first, then the real MAD) Sure, US has enough nukes to waste the world, it is within US's power, go for it. I will drink my last scotch with you.
                                China and US are both incestuously tied economically, however history shows trade does not prevent war. Given enough other factors, China and the US will clash and economic matters be dammed.

                                I do know that a closed China (before 1979) had fought more wars then a opened China. China took on the South Vietnamese navy while US look on in 1974.
                                In 1974 the US had abandoned South Vietnam, the dems in Congress even cut their funding. RVN was an international orphan.

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