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  • #31
    Originally posted by Big K View Post
    oy oy oyy...

    mate dont take it wrong but naivete is not a crime, dont worry...
    I would appreciate if you could put forward where you stand on the following points

    1. do you feel that a nation state or a politcal party should be primarily concerned with interests of muslims as is the current model of many islamic countries?

    do you feel that politics and religion should mix ?do you prefer community or nationalism? (all related questions)

    2. that muslims regard nonmuslims as much as an equal as other muslims? remember the ummah concept in this context.

    3. are you opposed to multi culturalism and secular democracy ,the ideology of the west and other countries like india ?

    I am talking from the standpoint of society and politics.not religion,mind you.

    i had turkish friends at university in america and i found their outlook and culture different from west asian/south asian muslims whom i am most used to. i would have loved to pose my questions primarily to the latter.

    but let's see a turkish perspective.

    Comment


    • #32
      I am a big advocate of the idea that one must treat others the way they want to be treated. Muslims in general have nothing against the U.S. or the West they just want to be left alone to run their own affairs as they deem fit within their countries without American interventions or meddling. Lets remember that Muslims are not the ones occupying American territories or Western territories but the other way around, everywhere you look you see Western heavy handedness from the illegal occupation of Iraq, to the Afghan invasion, to over 65 years of brutal Palestinian occupation, to the threats against Iran, to the meddling in Somalia and Sudan, to the threats against Syria and Lebanon, to the pressures on Libya, to the daily air attacks and pressures on Pakistan.

      So when Muslims look at the world they see American or Western involvement in almost all the Muslim countries and this is injustice, terrorist use these occupations and meddling as an excuse to recruit and whip up Muslim fervor, the greatest way to defeat these terrorist is not to wage war but leave Muslims lands alone and they will not have an excuse to whip up the public or the excuse to hide behind that they are doing the things they are doing to liberate Muslim lands. The Muslims themselves can crush these extremist when these extremist run out of their main excuse of defending Muslim lands against aggression.

      The terrorist are saying that it is the West that's waging war against Islam and they point to how many Muslim countries are either being occupied, threatened or their internal affairs meddled in, so the West needs to leave Muslim lands alone so these terrorist won't have an excuse, and the Muslims citizens themselves will deal with these terrorist and extremists because the Muslims will see that their is no Muslim lands being occupied and no meddling.

      Comment


      • #33
        To me only these Islamic Extremist groups are at "War" with the US. Think about it, earlier on in 2004 most IED and bomb makers weren't Hardcore Muslims and they wanted to sell them for money. There's a very small percentage of terrorists who want to blow themselves up. There was this one man, who wanted to fight Americans, he was told to drive a car they had given him to somewhere in Iraq (not knowing that it was filled with explosives) then it was detonated. He survived somehow and told his story. He is in this program that helps old Al-Qaeda operatives and other extremists forget about their terrorist groups.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by UnitedSomalia View Post
          Lets remember that Muslims are not the ones occupying American territories or Western territories but the other way around, everywhere you look you see Western heavy handedness from the illegal occupation of Iraq, to the Afghan invasion, to over 65 years of brutal Palestinian occupation, to the threats against Iran, to the meddling in Somalia and Sudan, to the threats against Syria and Lebanon, to the pressures on Libya, to the daily air attacks and pressures on Pakistan.
          Why you have the same idea with me,are you also influced by CPC?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
            Why you have the same idea with me,are you also influced by CPC?
            What makes you say that my friend? elaborate because I don't understand the remark some parts of it at least? thank you

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by UnitedSomalia View Post
              What makes you say that my friend? elaborate because I don't understand the remark some parts of it at least? thank you
              What I mean is that I agree with you。You know ,China don't have a Good reputation here。There‘re many point is opposite to my idea。Some guy alway use CPC’s propaganda makes me Ignorance or some words like that to refute me,so I'm happy that have some guys have same idea with me and I play a joke to you at last。Ask if your idea about western is also influenced by CPC‘s propaganda。:))
              Last edited by Luke Gu; 21 Aug 09,, 16:19.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
                What I mean is that I agree with you。You know ,China don't have a Good reputation here。There‘re many point is opposite to my idea。Some guy alway use CPC’s propaganda makes me Ignorance or some words like that to refute me,so I'm happy that have some guys have same idea with me and I play a joke to you at last。Ask if your idea about western is also influenced by CPC‘s propaganda。:))
                It is good to find someone that agrees with one's points, not everyone agrees on everything all the time, but on some aspects such as this we do agree on and that is what makes a healthy dialogue. I respect China and the advancements it has made since Mao Zedong and the great leap forward specially in the economic sphere. My major was criminal justice but my minor was international relations so I love discussing geopolitical topics. I do enjoy the intelligent discussions and that we do find something common to agree on.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by UnitedSomalia View Post
                  I am a big advocate of the idea that one must treat others the way they want to be treated. Muslims in general have nothing against the U.S. or the West they just want to be left alone to run their own affairs as they deem fit within their countries without American interventions or meddling. Lets remember that Muslims are not the ones occupying American territories or Western territories but the other way around, everywhere you look you see Western heavy handedness from the illegal occupation of Iraq, to the Afghan invasion, to over 65 years of brutal Palestinian occupation, to the threats against Iran, to the meddling in Somalia and Sudan, to the threats against Syria and Lebanon, to the pressures on Libya, to the daily air attacks and pressures on Pakistan.

                  So when Muslims look at the world they see American or Western involvement in almost all the Muslim countries and this is injustice, terrorist use these occupations and meddling as an excuse to recruit and whip up Muslim fervor, the greatest way to defeat these terrorist is not to wage war but leave Muslims lands alone and they will not have an excuse to whip up the public or the excuse to hide behind that they are doing the things they are doing to liberate Muslim lands. The Muslims themselves can crush these extremist when these extremist run out of their main excuse of defending Muslim lands against aggression.

                  The terrorist are saying that it is the West that's waging war against Islam and they point to how many Muslim countries are either being occupied, threatened or their internal affairs meddled in, so the West needs to leave Muslim lands alone so these terrorist won't have an excuse, and the Muslims citizens themselves will deal with these terrorist and extremists because the Muslims will see that their is no Muslim lands being occupied and no meddling.
                  The reason why "western" forces entered Afghanistan was because of the 911 attack on the US in 2001. Your assertion that "Muslims will deal with these terrorists" is therefore positively wrong. NATO invaded Afghanistan because the Afghan islamist rulers (Taleban) was actively supporting Al Qaeda, an organization that launched attack against the US. THe US is entitedled to defend herself, don't you agree?

                  Iraq is a completely different story. Most Western countries never supported the US-led invasion of Iraq (the second Gulf war).

                  George Bush did several huge mistakes in his foreign policy; to judge "the western world" because of what this one man and his government did, seems as unjustified as judging the Islamic world on the basis of what certain Islamists are doing.

                  US main interest in the ME is oil; no doubt about that. HOWEVER what many people seem to miss is that the US and the western world is actually paying for the oil coming from the ME. Norway is also an oil country; however we have never been "invaded" by the US, actually Norway and the US has a very good relationship... we are a rich, stable, happy country. The fact that we sell oil to "the West" is not a problem, on the contrary it's what has made us rich.

                  It's the ME leaders that are stealing oil money from the "common people" in the ME, not the US.

                  The US is a super power, of course it will influence things around the world. It's an empire. However unlike any other empire in history it's based on democracy and freedom of expression. Consider; When mistreatment was reported from Iraqi prisons by US servicemen, this was reported in the news! it was not suppressed. The people who did this were prosecuted, and mistreating was stopped!

                  Can you please convince me that muslim countries, which, for the most part don't even have freedom of expression, would do the same thing? Do you think China would have done the same thing if they invade a country?

                  If you switch to democracy and freedom of expression, the US will embrace and support such a solution.

                  However anything similar to what we saw in Afghanistan with the Taliban seems like a nightmare to the US and the rest of the free world.

                  Perhaps, in some decades, the US will become weaker and China will replace the US on the world scene.... if that happens my guess is that some muslim countries in particular ME and Africa will after a while dream back to the "good old days" when the people meddling were the Americans...The Chinese are already becoming hugely unpopular in some parts of Africa due to the way they are treating the locals.

                  Look at how China is treating muslims in their own country. Look at how the US is treating muslims in their own country. Open your eyes!!!

                  Salam Al Marayati: Muslims in America

                  In many ways, Muslims are more secure in America and can practice their faith freely in America than any other country in the world, including any Muslim country. I am an American.

                  I am a Muslim. I will work for a better future for all Americans and Muslims worldwide.

                  Conservative Anglicans Announce Church and Islam Project | Christianpost.com


                  You may also want to look into what has happened to some christians in some muslim countries...

                  The Associated Press: Pakistan rights group: Christian riots planned

                  AFP: Gunmen kill Iraqi Christian outside factory

                  Since the US-led invasion of 2003, hundreds of Iraqi Christians have been killed across Iraq and a string of churches attacked.

                  Most recently, four Christians were killed and 32 other people were injured in seven attacks on churches in Baghdad and Mosul over a 48-hour period earlier this month.

                  Around 800,000 Christians lived in Iraq at the time of the invasion, but the number has since shrunk by around a third or more as members of the minority community have fled the country, according to Christian leaders.
                  The problems in Iraq will not disappear when the US pulls out; Will you still blame the US then? For how many years will you keep blaming the US, after they have pulled out? Open your eyes! The US is not the main problem.... however if you work with the US instead of fighting the US, the US can become part of the solution to your problems...

                  Personally I hope that China will take a long time to replace the US... I like democracy and freedom of expression very much. I hope that the muslim world also can come to appreciate it...


                  L

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by UnitedSomalia View Post
                    I am a big advocate of the idea that one must treat others the way they want to be treated. Muslims in general have nothing against the U.S. or the West they just want to be left alone to run their own affairs as they deem fit within their countries without American interventions or meddling. Lets remember that Muslims are not the ones occupying American territories or Western territories but the other way around, everywhere you look you see Western heavy handedness from the illegal occupation of Iraq, to the Afghan invasion, to over 65 years of brutal Palestinian occupation, to the threats against Iran, to the meddling in Somalia and Sudan, to the threats against Syria and Lebanon, to the pressures on Libya, to the daily air attacks and pressures on Pakistan.
                    Did you forget the 9/11 attacks? Americans did leave Afghanistan, Pakistan alone. It resulted in them loosing 3 thousand innocent people. That left them with 2 choices; sit back, and keep getting attacked and keep loosing American civillians; OR, take the fight to the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                      Did you forget the 9/11 attacks? Americans did leave Afghanistan, Pakistan alone. It resulted in them loosing 3 thousand innocent people. That left them with 2 choices; sit back, and keep getting attacked and keep loosing American civillians; OR, take the fight to the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
                      For devil's advocacy, lets even go back further decades before 9/11, how did the U.S. leave the Muslim world alone? For decades they have meddled in Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Syria and I can specifically list how and when they meddled in those countries and back it up factually. You can't deny the truth or try to cover it up, let me shed some light on few things;

                      1) What about when America overthrew the democratically elected Iranian leader Mossadeq and the CIA and the British orchestrated a coup and reinstalled the Shah while training and arming the Savak to oppress the Iranian people and silence dissent against the Shah?
                      2) What about when America armed and supported Iraq against Iran in an illegal war?
                      3) What about when April Glaspie the American Ambassador to Iraq stated after Saddam warned her about Kuwait stealing of Iraqi oil through slant drilling and how Kuwait was flooding the oil market with cheap oil in a economical war against Iraq and he presented satellite photos and concrete prove she told Iraq that America has no opinion and no position in the inter-Arab conflict between Kuwait and Iraq; therefore, giving Saddam green light to resolve his issue with Kuwait while at the same time setting him up on a collision course against the world?
                      4) What about the arming of different factions in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal to ensure no dominant opponent emergedl; thus ensuring that Afghanistan never had a stable government which lead to the 9/11 catastrophe. And mind you these same people the American's are fighting against in Afghanistan right now are the same people that they armed against the Soviets and amongst themselves.
                      5) What about the refusal to remove American troops from the holy soil of Saudi Arabia which is home to Mecca and Medina against the wishes of the entire Muslim world and the Saudi people themselves after the Persian Gulf war.
                      6) What about the backing of the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in the overthrowing of the Union of Islamic Courts which was a moderate Islamist faction which for the first time in over 16 years restored semblance of order and peace in Somalia, which lead to the creations of such groups as Al Shabab and other Al Qaeda of shoots, so in the end it back fired because Somalia is in Chaos again and instead of Union of Islamic Courts which wanted dialogue and wanted to work with America, Europe and the international community now you have Iraq style insurgency in Somalia by Al Shabab and the likes. Mind you the EU, the Arab league, UN, and the African Union had recognized the Islamic Courts before America and Ethiopia overthrew them and now they have to deal with a more ruthless opponent the Al Shabab.
                      7) What about the arming of different sides in the Lebanon civil war and the killing of hundreds of thousands of people?
                      8) What about the arming of different sides in the Sudan civil war?
                      9) What about the threats against Syria
                      10) What about the threats against Iran?
                      11) What about the 65+ years of brutal Palestine occupation?
                      12) What about the daily air bombings in Pakistan in which dozens and at times hundreds of innocent Pakistanis die?

                      See all these events except for the last one the Pakistan issue occurred before 9/11 and these are some of the roots answers of why many in the Muslim world are angry of Western invasions and interventions. If none of these occured the Muslim world would have no reason to be angry with the West. So if you want to defeat extremism and terrorism stop invading and attacking Muslim countries so the Muslim population would not have a reason to be mad at the West.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Can you please convince me that muslim countries, which, for the most part don't even have freedom of expression, would do the same thing? Do you think China would have done the same thing if they invade a country?
                        It seems it's worthywhile for a Muslim nation invaded by US。
                        The Chinese are already becoming hugely unpopular in some parts of Africa due to the way they are treating the locals.
                        oh,I don't know what China have done except trading。
                        Look at how China is treating muslims in their own country.
                        Sorry,I think what you want to say is some Uighurs who want make Xinjing Indefendent,not the all Muslims。
                        however if you work with the US instead of fighting the US, the US can become part of the solution to your problems...
                        Yes,creat problems at first,and then they should thank you for helping them solve problem。
                        Personally I hope that China will take a long time to replace the US..
                        Sorry,I hope China never replace US。It's really a hard work as world police 。What China care about is East Asia and make money ,the first rule to China is not interfere in the internal affairs,it's really a big trouble for trading。
                        Last edited by Luke Gu; 21 Aug 09,, 17:32.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          another view just came in my mind tody while driving(at least trying to drive :) ) in the citys huge traffic jam.

                          what did they do to the Pagans when first Christians came in to the British islands?

                          this is not a counter-arguing, just free thinking
                          Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by YoungIndia View Post
                            ....but let's see a turkish perspective.
                            First of all, as a respect demonstration one should use capitals when talking about these issues.

                            secondly dont take it wrong but i must suggest you to search the forums about this kind of topic in order to understand some "Turkish" perspective because your questions are requiring pages and pages of talks which are already done.

                            thirdly i am about to take your questions from wrong side.

                            if you want to know this, we did not came off from the cave previous day.
                            Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by UnitedSomalia View Post
                              For devil's advocacy, lets even go back further decades before 9/11, how did the U.S. leave the Muslim world alone? For decades they have meddled in Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Syria and I can specifically list how and when they meddled in those countries and back it up factually. You can't deny the truth or try to cover it up, let me shed some light on few things;
                              Americans and the British have indeed played dirty politics in the Middle East, that does not excuse the radical monkeys in power in the Middle East today; infact, the Americans HELPED today's ME radicals come to power by weakening secular forces and funding radicals. Clearly these radicals are a threat to the world, as has been seen by the terror strikes all around the world, so how on earth can you justify not waging war against the radicals in the ME now??

                              1) What about when America overthrew the democratically elected Iranian leader Mossadeq and the CIA and the British orchestrated a coup and reinstalled the Shah while training and arming the Savak to oppress the Iranian people and silence dissent against the Shah?
                              A Secular leader thrown out of power, replaced by a Dictator and later a radical theocracy. Its gone bad to worse. Americans helped overthrow Mossadeq, and it was a victory for the radicals in power today aswell, they disliked his secular ways to begin with.

                              2) What about when America armed and supported Iraq against Iran in an illegal war?
                              US supplied to both parties. One over the table, one under the table.

                              3) What about when April Glaspie the American Ambassador to Iraq stated after Saddam warned her about Kuwait stealing of Iraqi oil through slant drilling and how Kuwait was flooding the oil market with cheap oil in a economical war against Iraq and he presented satellite photos and concrete prove she told Iraq that America has no opinion and no position in the inter-Arab conflict between Kuwait and Iraq; therefore, giving Saddam green light to resolve his issue with Kuwait while at the same time setting him up on a collision course against the world?
                              True, but the radicals which you're batting for disliked Saddam Hussein as much as the Americans.

                              4) What about the arming of different factions in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal to ensure no dominant opponent emergedl; thus ensuring that Afghanistan never had a stable government which lead to the 9/11 catastrophe. And mind you these same people the American's are fighting against in Afghanistan right now are the same people that they armed against the Soviets and amongst themselves.
                              Wow, you really missed out on the Afghan story, hmm? The Americans left the Afghanis alone.. the Pakistanis picked one side, the Taliban, and helped them take over the rest of the country through waging war against the other warlords. From there, the Taliban opened its doors to terror groups such as AQ, which made it its base and waged war against other countries. It attacked America, the Americans demanded that Taliban government refuse to support AQ, upon their refusal, Afghanistan was bombed and AQ/Talibunnies driven out. Thats the real story.

                              5) What about the refusal to remove American troops from the holy soil of Saudi Arabia which is home to Mecca and Medina against the wishes of the entire Muslim world and the Saudi people themselves after the Persian Gulf war.
                              You're talking as if the Saudi people run their country. Before blaming someone else, they should open their eyes and see that their country belongs not to them, but to the princes and sheiks which have invited the Americans in. Instead of resenting against the Americans, maybe, they should fight for democracy in their lands instead so they could actually have a voice on their country's affairs.

                              6) What about the backing of the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in the overthrowing of the Union of Islamic Courts which was a moderate Islamist faction which for the first time in over 16 years restored semblance of order and peace in Somalia, which lead to the creations of such groups as Al Shabab and other Al Qaeda of shoots, so in the end it back fired because Somalia is in Chaos again and instead of Union of Islamic Courts which wanted dialogue and wanted to work with America, Europe and the international community now you have Iraq style insurgency in Somalia by Al Shabab and the likes. Mind you the EU, the Arab league, UN, and the African Union had recognized the Islamic Courts before America and Ethiopia overthrew them and now they have to deal with a more ruthless opponent the Al Shabab.
                              I don't know much about the Somali conflict, so can't comment. But just out of curiousity, the UIC was an armed group, was it not? AFAIK, it was made up of warlords, and if they were truly a moderate unifying force, than why did they not join the more democratic setup in the transitional federal parliament?

                              7) What about the arming of different sides in the Lebanon civil war and the killing of hundreds of thousands of people?
                              Lets not forget that the Middle East was fully polarized by now due to the Cold War; and with the Lebanese bordering Israel and Syria, it was inevitable.

                              8) What about the arming of different sides in the Sudan civil war?
                              Don't know much about this either, will have to read up on it.

                              9) What about the threats against Syria
                              10) What about the threats against Iran?
                              You see only one side?

                              11) What about the 65+ years of brutal Palestine occupation?
                              Palestinian issue is indeed a tough one but it certainly does not excuse radicalism. Palestine has options, and has had options but they constantly have lost land decade after decade instead of settling down and starting dialogue upon where to draw the state. Apart from that, as I have said before, Palestine-Israel issue is very complexed, both sides have valid points, and the Palestinian people have indeed suffered greater in this decades old conflict.

                              12) What about the daily air bombings in Pakistan in which dozens and at times hundreds of innocent Pakistanis die?
                              It happens by the full knowledge of the Pakistani government, and it is only because the Pakistanis themselves don't wish to go at it, they've been given loads of shiney toys particularly for this reason. The war there will only end once the Pakistanis themselves pick up the initiative to wage war against the Radicals in their tribal belt. Else, the Pakistanis themselves have gotten a taste of what will happen if they don't; their own existence depends on it! The radicals will move East to Islamabad again.

                              See all these events except for the last one the Pakistan issue occurred before 9/11 and these are some of the roots answers of why many in the Muslim world are angry of Western invasions and interventions. If none of these occured the Muslim world would have no reason to be angry with the West. So if you want to defeat extremism and terrorism stop invading and attacking Muslim countries so the Muslim population would not have a reason to be mad at the West.
                              The problem is the Middle East needs the West to survive, and likewise, the West needs the ME to survive. The argument you're making is on the lines of did the chicken come first or the egg? America's actions in the past resulted in the radicals sitting in power today, that does not mean, they have a valid reason to be there and to wage war. They are there because more moderate leaders were taken out by the Americans due to inconvenience in their geo-political game. As for the rest of the Muslim world, they have a better bet in fighting for democracy, so they can actually have a say about their affairs. Right now, it is more like, everything bad is blamed on the West and the Americans, nevermind the fact that the Middle East is built on the shoulders of oil export to country's like America. American greed for oil, is actually a boon for the ME. The day the American thirst for oil disappears, that is the day, the coffers in the ME start to dry up.

                              At the end of the day, forget the Americans, forget the West, the WORLD, needs a stable un-hostile Middle East. Why should rest of the world pay for your perception of the West? The radicalism in the ME has affected not only the West, but also the East, it has affected Asia, all the way to the South East!
                              Last edited by Tronic; 22 Aug 09,, 07:39.
                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Islam is not at war with the US. Its the fanatics that are; the talibunnies and al qaida scumbags. Too many peaceful muslims live in the US.

                                No offence:

                                I have known quite a few really good hearted Somalians, but I always tell them, Somalia is a sh$t hole. I don't even dare to say, anymore, that Africa should be a country ONLY because even the single countries have hundreds of tribes fighting each other, its ridiculous. Somalia needs help or they're doomed.
                                Last edited by Mobbme; 22 Aug 09,, 07:57.

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