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  • Saw this and thought it fit here -
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    • 4300 nm is not bad mileage for a 2800 tonne ship. Remember it's got capacity to carry 210 tonnes.

      An Arleigh Burke Will get you 4400nm.

      A Good Frigate will get you 6000nm.

      Its not as if you will be jetting about at max propulsion, and no one really does except nukes.

      It's like Afterburner. Use it when you need it.
      Ego Numquam

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      • For those unfamiliar with SEARAM. SEARAM is a CIWS replacement. Instead of a 20mm 5 barrel gattling gun it features 11 missles in the mount that can be reloaded very quickly. It fits in the very same footprint as the CIWS and can engage multiple targets at once. Like CIWS, it only requires two things, electrical to the mount, and cooling water to the radars encased above RAM unit.

        Link
        http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities..._datasheet.pdf
        Interesting system. Coming from an Air Force background, I am always amazed by the variety of missiles fielded by the Navy. The missile appears to be dual-guidance, and slightly bigger than a sidewinder.

        Given that the system operates autonomously - it sounds like you flip an ON switch - is there even a need to train with it? Beyond BIT checks, how can the crew be comfortable that these systems are ready to do their job?

        For live-fire exercises, how is a threat simulated that doesn't actually put a ship in danger?

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        • You use drones simulating AShM for live-fire exercises...

          My main criticism of SEARAM on LCS would be that it has way too few missiles ready-to-fire. Compare the 11 missiles ready to fire on Independence to the 42 missiles of the same type ready to fire from two separate launchers in full 360-degree arc on a German Braunschweig corvette for self-defense...

          What arc does the single launcher cover anyway? 210, 220 degrees over the stern at most?

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          • Originally posted by Rumrunner View Post
            Her Aluminum-heavy construction is a major drawback for the Independence. Regardless of what it releaseses when it burns, it still burns. One would think the USN learned it's lesson after the Belknap disaster - something caused by human error, not combat.

            Below is an excerpt from section 2.1.4 "Properties at Elevated Temperatures" on page 2-4 of SSC-452 ALUMINUM STRUCTURE DESIGN AND FABRICATION GUIDE (available at this link): "...aluminum alloys soften at higher temperatures, and therefore have poor resistance to heating, especially in a shipboard fire. There is a common misconception that aluminum will burn in a shipboard fire. However, because it will melt at about 1,100F (600C) structure involved in a fire will apparently disappear (reappearing in puddles of melted and resolidified metal) giving the appearance of having burned."

            Below is an excerpt from a piece about the collision and fire on the Belknap published in Time magazine dated 08Dec1975 (full story at the link): "...a heavy shock passed through the cruiser, followed by a long, rumbling shudder that felt like an earthquake. Up above, the Kennedy's angled landing deck was smashing through the superstructure of the Belknap like a battering ram. The impact crushed the ship's funnels, sending clouds of acrid smoke billowing through the cruiser. Jet fuel from the Kennedy sluiced over the Belknap's mangled superstructure. With a roar, fire broke out on both ships."

            I'm not sure how accurate that description was. If it wasn't overly embellished, it seems that a large quantity of jet fuel may have dumped down into a ripped open superstructure, and it was that fuel that burned, not the aluminum. The aluminum structure collapsed into the fire at the highly elevated temperatures.



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            Last edited by JRT; 29 Apr 10,, 06:07.
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            • Originally posted by kato View Post
              You use drones simulating AShM for live-fire exercises...

              My main criticism of SEARAM on LCS would be that it has way too few missiles ready-to-fire. Compare the 11 missiles ready to fire on Independence to the 42 missiles of the same type ready to fire from two separate launchers in full 360-degree arc on a German Braunschweig corvette for self-defense...

              What arc does the single launcher cover anyway? 210, 220 degrees over the stern at most?
              Adding a couple of Kongsberg/Raytheon NASAMS II SL-AMRAAM launchers, each with 6 rail mounted AIM-120-C7 missiles in sealed box cannisters, would both add capacity and extend the air-defense range.

              http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/r...raamfam_pd.pdf



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              • Originally posted by kato View Post
                You use drones simulating AShM for live-fire exercises...

                My main criticism of SEARAM on LCS would be that it has way too few missiles ready-to-fire. Compare the 11 missiles ready to fire on Independence to the 42 missiles of the same type ready to fire from two separate launchers in full 360-degree arc on a German Braunschweig corvette for self-defense...

                What arc does the single launcher cover anyway? 210, 220 degrees over the stern at most?
                I believe the SEARAM on the LCS is the absolute last ditch defense for the ship. In a higher intensity conflict, the LCSs would be covered by the Burkes, if not a carrier group. German ships cannot count on the Burkes being there when they need them.

                In lower intensity operations, the LCS would be used for patrolling the sea lanes, fight pirates, maybe deploying special ops/drones, and disaster response. A SEARAM launcher with 11 ready to fire missiles should be more than enough.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                  German ships cannot count on the Burkes being there when they need them.
                  German ships would be covered by a F124 (SM-2, ESSM, APAR radar) in high-intensity situations, at least a F123 (with ESSM) or a F124 in mid-intensity situations. At least if the taskforce setup works out as planned.

                  Of course for Germany, RAM (future Block 2 HAS, under development) is also fully intended to be used as a guided munition against surface targets at longer range than any medium-caliber guns mounted onboard. LCS intended to use NETFIRES for that role.

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                  • Originally posted by kato View Post
                    You use drones simulating AShM for live-fire exercises...

                    My main criticism of SEARAM on LCS would be that it has way too few missiles ready-to-fire. Compare the 11 missiles ready to fire on Independence to the 42 missiles of the same type ready to fire from two separate launchers in full 360-degree arc on a German Braunschweig corvette for self-defense...

                    What arc does the single launcher cover anyway? 210, 220 degrees over the stern at most?
                    The advantage of SeaRam for LCS is the self contained radar. Put RAM launchers and you have to add radar systems and the additional crew to man them.

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                    • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                      The advantage of SeaRam for LCS is the self contained radar. Put RAM launchers and you have to add radar systems and the additional crew to man them.
                      However, LCS-2 already has a radar system anyway - Sea Giraffe 3D.

                      There's even a system in service that combines Sea Giraffe 3D (AMB) with a regular Mk49 RAM launcher (Mk31 RAM system) - the UAE Navy Bayunah class.

                      LCS-1 with its full RAM launcher has the same radar layout as a German K130.

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                      • I guess I would conclude that LCS-3 Fort Worth (Freedom Class) will have SeaRam. Has anyone heard if it will have the Ram or SeaRam?

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                        • Originally posted by kato View Post
                          However, LCS-2 already has a radar system anyway - Sea Giraffe 3D.

                          There's even a system in service that combines Sea Giraffe 3D (AMB) with a regular Mk49 RAM launcher (Mk31 RAM system) - the UAE Navy Bayunah class.

                          LCS-1 with its full RAM launcher has the same radar layout as a German K130.
                          Sea giraffe is a tracking radar. Not a targeting radar. So you still have to add another radar system to shoot stuff.

                          The Bayunah does have Sea Giraffe. But targeting is done with the Selex Orion RTN 25 X-band radar

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                          • Sea Giraffe 3D is a multi-purpose radar that provides both volume search and tracking. It's all you need to get a vector to point the launcher at. And RAM doesn't need any more than that.

                            The Selex Orion RTN 25 on the Bayunah is used as an illuminator for ESSM. You don't need to illuminate targets for RAM.

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                            • Now apparently the Navy has taken over the cancelled Army NLOS missile program for the LCS's.

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                              • Re: AAW/self-defense capability of LCS

                                The LCS CONOPS documents publicly available to date (there is a September '09 internal version which is due to be revised Fall 2010) clearly states that LCS would be under the umbrella of either air superiority or other AAW platforms - Burkes/Ticos. Given the prolliferation of coastal cruise missiles and the INS Hanit experience, there should be obvious reservations now on an employment level. Lesson learned here by other navies - you can't have enough air self-defense options even on your smallest combatants.

                                There has been no official comment yet that PEO LMW will be taking on the continued development NLOS. To be frank, the $75MM that HASC transferred to the Navy will not be enough to make this program whole. The stumbling block of the NLOS program appears to be the tri-method guidance - the missile would use GPS/INS to get to the general target area, then switch to IR or Laser seeker to terminally close with the objective. The GPS/INS is what gives you non-LOS capability and thereby stand-off range, otherwise the system is subject to the same limitations as most AT missiles. Whether this is a small or large remediation item was never clear, but some sources close to the program are indicating it was a "fixable" item but the program was shut down before re-tests could confirm.

                                The fundamental issue coming to light is that LCS has been marketed as "modular," but that feature did not extend to the missile bays themselves. The weapons bays on both Freedom and Independence are specifically designed and sized for NLOS CLUs (with some naval environment mods). It's possible to drop in other weapons, but you would need to either re-engineer the bays, or the containers for the weapons. Then the next challenge is guidance and control. NLOS was supposed to be mostly autonomous, with the ability to receive in-flight updates, and if you drop in any other type of weapon, you have to figure out again how it's going to be guided to the target. Size and numbers matter as well; the last footprint of the CLUs gave a total of 45 PAMs per mission module. If the alternative weapon is larger than the PAM, then that number goes down and so does your potential total of effective fires. If the weapon requires a fire control director, then it needs to be added to the ship's package. Whether or not it can become part of the still incomplete SuW mission module or requires being part of the seaframe core is another story.
                                Last edited by Juramentado; 27 May 10,, 13:51.

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