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Thread: German F-125: I don't get it...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    Probably not quite that much, maybe 60% of the profit will be taxed, but not the gross cost. When the USGov purchases something, we specifically state for the vendor to not add sales tax to the quote (not sure how it works in your neck of the woods.)
    Sales tax is required to be quoted in any domestic purchases in Germany. That's 19% off the cost flowing back to the government.

    Manpower is the most costly component of the gross cost, probably easily demanding 60% of the project cost, and that by itself will be taxed at around 30% to the government (well, sliding scale of 14-42% income tax, average for shipyard workers probably somewhere above the middle), plus around 15% will be paid into social insurances (pension, health insurance, unemployment).

    And after everything else, the profit itself will be taxed at around 15% (by the community, not the federal government).

    Basically, it's all just one huge tax redistribution scheme.

  2. #17
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    Guess this is the best thread to stick it into...

    The F125 design has changed dimensions again - upwards of course.

    Last published data was 145.6 x 18.0 x 5.0 meters at 7200 tons displacement.

    New dimensions are 149.5 x 18.8 x 5.0 meters with no given displacement; applying a close box factor (since the extension is in the middle, not exactly the same), this enlargement turns out to be simply the next 400-ton step : to about 7600 tons displacement now (identical box factor would be 7555 tons).

    The F125 design has been constantly growing over the past years; from a very tentative 5600 tons ("like F124") initially always in 400-ton steps - 6000, 6400, 6800, 7200.

    In addition delivery dates for the four ships have been pushed back and fixed down at between 3/2016 (first) and 12/2018 (last) now, with a ship to be delivered every 11 months.
    Reason for the enlargement and backdating is among other things modifications in crewspace, workspace, crew size (new accomodation: 190; crew fixed down at 110 core without aircrew) and larger helicopter hangars - to accomodate anything selected as future navy helo, previous design was specced specifically for NH90.

  3. #18
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    Good info, thanks
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  4. #19

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    Now they really can call it Cruiser.

    Of course, the Arleigh Burke, which is bigger, is a destroyer but the duties, the F125 have to fulfill are typical cruiser duties I think.

    If we are looking to the past I mean (<1945).

  5. #20
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    If we talk in pre-WW2 terms, the F125 roleset is in essence a mix of a French prewar Aviso Colonial and a RN prewar destroyer leader like the Inglefield.
    Just scaled up to postwar DL sizes while staying with a ASuW role instead of gaining a primary ASW role like the postwar USN Mitscher DLs.

  6. #21
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    Christening of the first F125, F222 Baden-Württemberg was originally planned for March 11th and has now been postponed till fall. The flame-retardant paint on the lower decks was applied the wrong way and now has to be scraped off and reapplied.

    Final armament, as that was the question of this thread originally, is:
    - 8x Harpoon Block 1C [1]
    - 2x 21-cell Mk49 with RAM Block 2 [2]
    - 127mm/L64 OTO Vulcano with ASCA interface [3]
    - light guns: 2x 27mm MLG27 RWS + 5x .50cal OTO Hitrole NT RWS + 2x .50cal M2HB
    - helicopters: 2x MH-90 [4]
    - boats: 4x Fassmer RIC [5]
    - drones: up to 12x UUVs [6]

    [1] until future standard long-range missile is decided on and procured; still probable: RBS-15 Mk4, ship-to-ship/ship-to-shore high subsonic cruise missile with possible 250+ nm range (under development).
    [2] Multi-mode: anti-aircraft/anti-missile/anti-surface; ~10 nm range. 445 Block 2 missiles ordered last month for delivery 2016+ in line with F125 introduction (~two full loads for every launcher remaining in the navy).
    [3] fully integrated into German artillery network. ~40 nm range with unguided sabotted BER munition. Production contract for semi-active laser terminally guided munition with planned ~55 nm range signed between OTO Melara and Diehl last year.
    [4] Naval helicopter derived from NH-90. Production order hammered out last month for a total of 18 replacing currently 22 Mk41 Sea King (with Sea Lynx remaining for F123 et al.).
    [5] 270 kw engine, 35+ knots (official); 130 nm range. Two light weapon stations (40mm GMG + .50cal M2HB), 2 tons cargo or 12 troops payload.
    [6] LEXXWAR, a CMS based off what the F125 is supposed to use in software, has been successfully integrated and demonstrated with Sea Wolf as UUVs. Sea Wolf is a considerably larger version of Sea Fox and has been used by LEXXWAR as an inspection drone (TV cam, parametric sonar, ground-penetrating sonar). The drone itself is armed with a heavy shaped charge and is can be used for minehunting or UXO disposal, including deep-buried XO. Other possibles here (for a healthy mix) might include Sea Fox C/I itself as well as Remus 100 and - as a large AUV for standalone missions - Sea Otter Mk II (tested by WTD 71 in connection with Sea Wolf).
    Last edited by kato; 17 Apr 13, at 21:58.

  7. #22
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    First official sea trials for Baden-Württemberg:

    http://www.bundeswehr.de/contentDown...erttemberg.mp4
    (Video, download to watch)

    Official final dimensions are:
    - 149.6 m length
    - 18.80 m width
    - 5.40 m draught
    - 7100 tons standard load displacement

    (Note: the ship has "F222 Hamburg" stenciled at the stern in the video. This is because she is not yet commissioned - and civilian ships have to display their homeport that way.)

  8. #23
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    The second F125 Nordrhein-Westfalen did her first 9-day sea trials sail in early February.

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    Showing off the rather versatile flexible Hitrole mounting on Baden-Württemberg at 1:22:



    Only two of the five Hitroles can bend forward like that though.

    At the beginning there's a MLG27 firing at full 1600rpm too in that video. And a bit later showing off the OTO 127mm LW mount - not at its full rate of fire though, since the German Navy considers that as classified as the full range of the Vulcano ammunition (officially stated: 30+ rpm, 80+ km). Loading procedure is interesting - as far as i know for the US Mk45 shells are still hand-loaded into the carousel?
    Last edited by kato; 04 Mar 17, at 14:20.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Showing off the rather versatile flexible Hitrole mounting on Baden-Württemberg at 1:22:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WQN...utu.be&t=1m22s

    Only two of the five Hitroles can bend forward like that though.
    Pretty cool mount. But I wonder why didn't they just extend the side of the deck enough to avoid needing that?

  11. #26
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    They're intended to fire at targets up to the hull side over the entire arc of the side they're mounted on - meaning also "below" themselves. By up to the hull side i mean literally that, they're intended to fire even at people trying to climb the ship if necessary. The mount can fold the full 90 degrees sidewards for his. Extending the deck would ruin the radar cross section and still leave some blind zones.

    As mounted the five RWS provide coverage up to the hull side for any approach angle except immediately behind the stern. The .50cal are intended to provide close-in defense at the innermost layer, with the 27mm guns ranging further out to the sides over a limited angle. The stern is additionally covered by two watercannons, conveniently mounted such that they can also flood the flight deck.

    I've yet to find out where they're planning to mount the two additional regular .50cal MGs carried - listing those is always somewhat odd, since the MPE naval infantry section always deployed would bring additional MGs and GMGs anyway (not counting the 8 on the boats carried). Typically the pair of HMGs "coming with the ship" would go on the bridge wings with German frigates, but on the F125 the bridge wings aren't really suitable for that.

  12. #27
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    Since I posted the guns here's the missiles too:



    Four RAM and one Harpoon fired from F222 Baden-Württemberg during trials.

    Handover is in summer. The ship is already being run with a navy crew though - Bravo crew for this video. The video with the guns from last month was the Alpha crew, the two are used as a tag-team during the trials (later operations will switch through all eight crews, Alpha to Hotel).

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