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  • Musharraf admits Breeding Terrorists

    Was just watching Musharraf's recent visit to the India Today Conclave and was a bit amused to see Musharraf openly admit that his government uses terrorists against India as their policy. Now that fact comes as no surprise, but a Pakistani leader admitting that fact openly in front of an Indian audience does. His contention is that Indian intelligence does the same against Pakistan, I personally don't buy that, but everyone can reach their own conclusions.

    Here is the part about him talking about using terrorists starting at around 2:00:

    YouTube - Gen Musharraf at India today enclave 2009 Q&A part 2


    The entire video is uploaded on youtube in several parts and is quite a watch!
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

  • #2
    I saw it back then on tv. Hey Tronic IIRC, there will be a part ahead when Musharraf tries to link up terrorism with the condition of Indian Moslems and Deobandi leader Maulana Mahmood refutes him saying they are quite happy and their condition is none of Pakistan's business.
    When our perils are past, shall our gratitude sleep? - George Canning sigpic

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    • #3
      Ya, he is old school, the batch that cried in 71.

      The man who came out with that local/contained war doctrine, lost someone close due to that, a friends dad still walks with a artificial leg, so many on both sides lost their loved ones, and many more still carry the scars.

      Dont think i will ever believe what he says, no way.

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      • #4
        It's a damn shame someone like this was even allowed entry into India. How quickly we forget what happened in Kargil (and other places) in 1999. I wonder how Capt. Saurabh Kalia's parents would feel seeing us treating Musharraf with even the slighest semblance of respect. Damn shame. Saurabh Kalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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        • #5
          Least he kept the extremists in check for the most part. The current government doesnt seem to have any authority at all over the gremlins Pakistan created.
          The best part of repentance is the sin

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Knaur Amarsh View Post
            I saw it back then on tv. Hey Tronic IIRC, there will be a part ahead when Musharraf tries to link up terrorism with the condition of Indian Moslems and Deobandi leader Maulana Mahmood refutes him saying they are quite happy and their condition is none of Pakistan's business.
            Yes, the part I find most interesting is when former Kashmir CM Farooq Abdullah grills Musharraf on his double speak on the Kashmir issue. Musharraf, a man whose entire life revolved around trying to annex Kashmir from India, is completely lost for words!

            Originally posted by axeman View Post
            It's a damn shame someone like this was even allowed entry into India. How quickly we forget what happened in Kargil (and other places) in 1999. I wonder how Capt. Saurabh Kalia's parents would feel seeing us treating Musharraf with even the slighest semblance of respect. Damn shame. Saurabh Kalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
            Why is it a shame? The civilized manner in which such debates can take place even with a man who waged war against India in '99 is something to be proud of. This is the sort of freedom our Jawans laid down their lives for. This is exactly what distinguishes us from our neighbour to the West.
            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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            • #7
              Originally posted by chakos View Post
              Least he kept the extremists in check for the most part. The current government doesnt seem to have any authority at all over the gremlins Pakistan created.
              11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              Oh yeah, he did a great job !

              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              Why is it a shame? The civilized manner in which such debates can take place even with a man who waged war against India in '99 is something to be proud of. This is the sort of freedom our Jawans laid down their lives for. This is exactly what distinguishes us from our neighbour to the West.
              Our Jawans laid down their lives (and continue to do so) so that we can live another day in peace. Not so that some dictator can come over here and go on and on about how crappy India is.

              There are many things that distinguish us from Pakistan. Just because we do something that they don't, doesn't make it right. We don't see America inviting people who are responsible for the deaths of thousands of their countrymen (and for a good reason).

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              • #8
                The media is behaving like they just discovered scotch on moon.
                Take it as it is, every single person in the "business to know" ladder knows this for years now.
                sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                  Why is it a shame? The civilized manner in which such debates can take place even with a man who waged war against India in '99 is something to be proud of. This is the sort of freedom our Jawans laid down their lives for. This is exactly what distinguishes us from our neighbour to the West.
                  No. Civilized debates don't extend to enemies of the state. It's a foolish state that mistakes such for freedom.

                  Our soldiers died to protect the freedoms that we, citizens of India, enjoy. Foreigners in the country are treated the same as a courtesy. Musharraf however planned and waged a war against us. Further he did so not with uniformed troops but with terrorists. The man does not deserve an invitation.
                  "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chankya View Post
                    No. Civilized debates don't extend to enemies of the state. It's a foolish state that mistakes such for freedom.

                    Our soldiers died to protect the freedoms that we, citizens of India, enjoy. Foreigners in the country are treated the same as a courtesy. Musharraf however planned and waged a war against us. Further he did so not with uniformed troops but with terrorists. The man does not deserve an invitation.
                    Not to nitpick but he waged war using both; uniformed troops and terrorists.

                    Originally posted by axeman View Post
                    Our Jawans laid down their lives (and continue to do so) so that we can live another day in peace. Not so that some dictator can come over here and go on and on about how crappy India is.

                    There are many things that distinguish us from Pakistan. Just because we do something that they don't, doesn't make it right. We don't see America inviting people who are responsible for the deaths of thousands of their countrymen (and for a good reason).
                    Ok guys. We all have our own perceptions. I don't see why everything has to be equated to what America does or doesn't. I think stuff like this is excellent as it not only gives a chance for Indians to directly question our adversaries, it also shows the amount of press freedom we enjoy; a sharp contradiction from pretty much all our neighbours. Musharraf can freely lie to his own people, but the man made a mockery of himself in front of an audience not subjected to decades of PA propaganda. He talked about the "pains" of Indian muslims, only to be given the middle finger (rhetorically speaking ofcourse) by an Indian muslim; he talked about Kashmir, only to be given the middle finger by a Kashmiri ex-CM. A man who has used lies and deception as a strategy to climb the echelons of power does not need to be given a cold shoulder, something he would probably have been much more comfortable with than being confronted with the truth!
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                    • #11
                      It would probably not come as a surprise, but some "other forums" have started painting him as a patriotic pakistani with spine since he apeared in front of a bunch of "hostile Indians"

                      Oh, and they have also equated the Maulana with something like a "bhare ka mussalman" (a muslim for hire and all the implications)
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                        Not to nitpick but he waged war using both; uniformed troops and terrorists.
                        He used terrorists did he not? The PA was in mufti, was it not? Not uniformed like it should be. No honour there.

                        Ok guys. We all have our own perceptions. I don't see why everything has to be equated to what America does or doesn't. I think stuff like this is excellent as it not only gives a chance for Indians to directly question our adversaries, it also shows the amount of press freedom we enjoy; a sharp contradiction from pretty much all our neighbours. Musharraf can freely lie to his own people, but the man made a mockery of himself in front of an audience not subjected to decades of PA propaganda. He talked about the "pains" of Indian muslims, only to be given the middle finger (rhetorically speaking ofcourse) by an Indian muslim; he talked about Kashmir, only to be given the middle finger by a Kashmiri ex-CM. A man who has used lies and deception as a strategy to climb the echelons of power does not need to be given a cold shoulder, something he would probably have been much more comfortable with than being confronted with the truth!
                        No one cares a whit what America does. Indians died due to Musharraf's perfidy. The Op was planned in the middle of a good will gesture and peace talks. And then you want to invite the guy who did it. What message are you sending? Hey, come on over, blow up our people, occupy our lands and when it's all done we'll fete you and invite you to spew your propaganda when people are still dying to terrorists you raised. That's just bloody brilliant.

                        What questions are you asking of him? "umm excuse me, but did you direct terrorists? ". So radio intercepts of the Indian Army that (were also played on Indian TV) that show him directing the Deputy COAS on the same ops are not good enough for you? ID cards taken off dead bodies at kargil not good enough? What questions do you still have for him that you figure he'll answer?

                        I'm not sure what the whole episode proved. That Indian muslims don't want him? Who's that message for? If India doesn't already believe that of our muslims then we're in for a shit load of trouble. If Pakistan, then you obviously don't see how it's playing there. He's the plucky lion who went into the den of jackals. If for others, then its a waste of time. The US is willfully ignorant of the state sponsorship of terror by Pakistan. Putting a two bit dictator on TV doesn't change that. China remains the all-weather friend because of Pakistan's use of Islamic terror to contain India not in spite of it. No one else has any real influence.

                        So tell me again, what did it achieve?
                        Last edited by chankya; 12 May 09,, 20:21.
                        "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chankya View Post
                          He used terrorists did he not? The PA was in mufti, was it not? Not uniformed like it should be. No honour there.



                          No one cares a whit what America does. Indians died due to Musharraf's perfidy. The Op was planned in the middle of a good will gesture and peace talks. And then you want to invite the guy who did it. What message are you sending? Hey, come on over, blow up our people, occupy our lands and when it's all done we'll fete you and invite you to spew your propaganda when people are still dying to terrorists you raised. That's just bloody brilliant.

                          What questions are you asking of him? "umm excuse me, but did you direct terrorists? ". So radio intercepts of the Indian Army that (were also played on Indian TV) that show him directing the Deputy COAS on the same ops are not good enough for you? ID cards taken off dead bodies at kargil not good enough? What questions do you still have for him that you figure he'll answer?

                          I'm not sure what the whole episode proved. That Indian muslims don't want him? Who's that message for? If India doesn't already believe that of our muslims then we're in for a shit load of trouble. If Pakistan, then you obviously don't see how it's playing there. He's the plucky lion who went into the den of jackals. If for others, then its a waste of time. The US is willfully ignorant of the state sponsorship of terror by Pakistan. Putting a two bit dictator on TV doesn't change that. China remains the all-weather friend because of Pakistan's use of Islamic terror to contain India not in spite of it. No one else has any real influence.

                          So tell me again, what did it achieve?
                          Couldn't have said it better myself.

                          @Tronic

                          America was used only as an example. I could also have used the example of any other country which has been attacked.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by chankya View Post
                            He used terrorists did he not? The PA was in mufti, was it not? Not uniformed like it should be. No honour there.
                            Never disagreed with you.


                            No one cares a whit what America does. Indians died due to Musharraf's perfidy. The Op was planned in the middle of a good will gesture and peace talks. And then you want to invite the guy who did it. What message are you sending? Hey, come on over, blow up our people, occupy our lands and when it's all done we'll fete you and invite you to spew your propaganda when people are still dying to terrorists you raised. That's just bloody brilliant.

                            What questions are you asking of him? "umm excuse me, but did you direct terrorists? ". So radio intercepts of the Indian Army that (were also played on Indian TV) that show him directing the Deputy COAS on the same ops are not good enough for you? ID cards taken off dead bodies at kargil not good enough? What questions do you still have for him that you figure he'll answer?

                            I'm not sure what the whole episode proved. That Indian muslims don't want him? Who's that message for? If India doesn't already believe that of our muslims then we're in for a shit load of trouble. If Pakistan, then you obviously don't see how it's playing there. He's the plucky lion who went into the den of jackals. If for others, then its a waste of time. The US is willfully ignorant of the state sponsorship of terror by Pakistan. Putting a two bit dictator on TV doesn't change that. China remains the all-weather friend because of Pakistan's use of Islamic terror to contain India not in spite of it. No one else has any real influence.

                            So tell me again, what did it achieve?
                            Just giving you my perspective mate. Sure nothing came out of it, but then, I doubt anything was suppose to come out of it. The only thing I saw happening was the man's credibility taking a beating. Other than that, I personally don't pay much heed to words or symbolism. Atleast in my opinion, I feel that one should always extend their hand out to their enemies, without any hard feelings. If they do you wrong, instead of holding grudges, you sort it out then and there with concrete actions! Now if the Indian leadership for the past 2 decades has handicapped the army from such action, then you should be venting against them; not against stuff like this. But then, that's just my opinion, you're entitled to your own.
                            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                            • #15
                              Hey Tronic, your whole assessment of Mushy's visit being a humiliation for him is wrong. Infact this is being touted as a Hero visiting the enemy's den and even winning the enemy's admiration as seen by the standing ovation at the end of his debate. Why do we have to entertain this guy, he is a non entity now and we end up looking like fools....
                              Seek Save Serve Medic

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