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Was Reactivating the Iowas in the 80s a Good Idea?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Johnny W View Post
    Was the 14 inch gun really preferred, or was it a case of the ships that carried the 14 inch guns being more experienced at NGFS missions? Most of the 16 inch gun battleships in World War II spent most of their time operating with the carriers, and didn't get as much practice at it as the older ships did.
    No. The 16/45s equipped BBs were active from 1942 and conducted shore bombardment as much as the older ships. If you are specific about the Iowas, maybe. They came late in the game.

    Originally posted by Dred
    yet even 50 years later they would reach for something whose reign supposedly had ended 50 years earlier to go into battle with.
    You pick the hulls with the least amount of wear and tear. They hadn't been used for much of those 50 years. They were almost new.

    Fletcher class DDs served continuous from 1942 to 2002. Essex class Aircraft carriers served until 1991. Didn't have to pull them out of mothballs, they were proving their worth every day.

    Iowa class BBs were good ships that did their job. Nothing more. Something I hate about the "Bring back the Battleship" crowd is the overstating the BBs history, accomplishments and their usefulness.

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    • #32
      Iowa class BBs were good ships that did their job. Nothing more. Something I hate about the "Bring back the Battleship" crowd is the overstating the BBs history, accomplishments and their usefulness.


      Gunny, Perhaps one of the reasons why they argue is because when first built no one including Chantry their designer could foresee them in the roles that they were used for much later in life. They evolved with the times they were chosen for instead of just being a ship to ship gun platform and carrier bodygaurd that would disappear after a few years in mothballs and be scrapped like many other nations BB's. Nobody could have forseen the worlds most powerful navy (RN) at the time scrap all of her capital ships since the British owed everything to the RN for the life blood of the country.

      Overstating the BB's history is a diffacult one, on one side you always had the nay sayers including Admirals and airdales that showed they had no idea of what they were comparing. And on the other side you had the men that sailed them, sailed with them or relyed upon them for some measure of protection or utility.

      They're accomplishments are well justified IMO, as mentioned above they continued to evolve even 50 years later carrying the latest missle technology for the day which proved they were in no doubt the most sucessfull BB design ever created. Many would have liked to have seen the Montanas since they would have the knowledge gleened from all the classes as one and have the largest main battery afloat in the USN.
      Last edited by Dreadnought; 08 May 09,, 13:54.
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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      • #33
        Fletcher class DDs served continuous from 1942 to 2002. Essex class Aircraft carriers served until 1991. Didn't have to pull them out of mothballs, they were proving their worth every day.


        As I wrote before, these were my favorite class of destroyer, true gun destroyers that had great lines. I did some reading and found a few nations that recieved the Fletchers and as you mentioned the oldest one in service.

        The Essex, IMO the pinnacle of the CV's of the day. Philly at one time had quite a few in storage but the only one I was ever aboard/inside was the Shang although we also had Antietam. I was on her deck but never internal so therefore I cannot say I was really on her. Great looking ships. Now we just have JFK in reserve here carrier wise. Bremeton and the others have also the OOS carriers.
        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
          No. The 16/45s equipped BBs were active from 1942 and conducted shore bombardment as much as the older ships. If you are specific about the Iowas, maybe. They came late in the game.

          I don't think thats true. I specifically remember reading a report of one of the bombardments (maybe it was Okinawa) which mentions that the fast battleships performed poorly in shore bombardment because they didn't do it as much as the older ships. Unfortunately, I can't remember the source, but will try to post it later if I can find it.

          Edited to add this.

          http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/...arianas-5.html

          Also on 13 June, while the carrier planes continued their bombing and strafing missions against the islands, the fast battleships and certain designated destroyers were detached from escort and screening duties and assigned the mission of initiating naval shore bombardment of Saipan and Tinian and covering mine-sweeping operations. Seven fast battleships and eleven destroyers were detached and formed into a separate bombardment group under command of Vice Adm. William A. Lee, Jr. From 1040 until about 1725 they pounded the west coast of Saipan and Tinian. Meanwhile, ten fast mine sweepers probed the waters off the west coast of Saipan from distances of about six to two miles offshore. They found no moored contact or acoustics mines and received no fire from the beach. That night the battleships withdrew, but five destroyers remained in the area to deliver harassing fire.16

          The results of the first day's naval gunfire were doubtful. At the close of the day's bombardment, headquarters of the 31st Army reported that although the city streets in Garapan and Charan Kanoa had been almost destroyed, personnel losses had been relatively slight.17 In spite of naval reports of considerable damage done to shore installations, General Holland Smith's naval gunfire officers remained skeptical. In their opinion, the effectiveness of the firing by these ships of Mitscher's task force had been limited because of severe handicaps. With one exception, the fast battleships had received no continuous training in shore bombardment as had most of the old battleships. This type of firing, which required slow, patient adjustments on specific targets, was quite different from that normally experienced in surface engagements and called for specialized training. Also, air spotters off the fast battleships had neither experience nor training in locating ground targets. Finally, because none of the ships was allowed to move closer than 10,000 yards (five nautical miles) from the shore for fear of mines, accurate fire against anything but large buildings and other such obvious targets was virtually impossible.

          Nevertheless, to the Japanese on the island the bombardment of the 13th, and especially that of the naval vessels, was a terrifying experience. One soldier described it thus:

          At 0500 there was a fierce enemy air attack. I have at last come to the place where I will die. I am pleased to think that I will die calmly in true samurai style. Naval gunfire supported this attack which was too terrible for words. I feel now like a full-fledged warrior. Towards evening the firing died down but at night naval gunfire continued as before. About 1700 communications with battalion headquarters were cut off

          Another eyewitness, a Japanese naval officer, noted: "The shells began to fall closer and closer to the airfield. It was frightful. The workers were all rather depressed."20 The same officer reported that shortly after the naval shelling started he ordered his lookouts, his fire-fighting unit, and his workers to withdraw to caves in the hills. He himself remained behind with a junior officer and a "superior petty officer." "On the veranda of the destroyed

          Early on the morning of 14 June, Rear Adm. Jesse B. Oldendorf arrived off the coast of Saipan with the two bombardment groups that would carry the main burden of naval gunfire support both before and during the seizure of the island. This force consisted of seven old battleships, eleven cruisers, twenty-six destroyers, and a few destroyer transports and fast mine sweepers.22 The battleships had all been commissioned between 1915 and 1921.23 Four of them, California, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Tennessee, were survivors of the attack on Pearl Harbor.24 All had undergone the rigorous training program for shore bombardment set up by V Amphibious Corps at Kahoolawe Island in the Hawaiian Islands.

          These ships were able to move into closer range than had the fast battleships in the previous day's bombardment. Mine sweepers had reported the area to the seaward of two miles from the shore line free of mines and were steadily moving in closer to the reef line. Better results were reported from this day's activities, and many installations were believed to have been directly hit, in spite of the facts that the time allowed for deliberate pinpoint fire was too short and that air spotters again revealed their lack of training in distinguishing important land targets.

          There is evidence that this preinvasion bombardment was especially effective against prepared gun positions of antiaircraft units, which were for the most part fixed. Two prisoners of war taken on 29 June reported that their antiaircraft unit, the 1st Battery, 25th AAA Regiment, had been annihilated before D Day in the Magicienne Bay area. The Japanese naval officer quoted above noted in his diary, "Practically all our antiaircraft gun and machine gun positions were destroyed by bombing and shelling on the 13th, 14th, and 15th.


          Last edited by Johnny W; 07 May 09,, 14:18.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Johnny W View Post
            I don't think thats true. I specifically remember reading a report of one of the bombardments (maybe it was Okinawa) which mentions that the fast battleships performed poorly in shore bombardment because they didn't do it as much as the older ships.
            I think that is a general statement for that particular battle. Other fast BBs such as North Carolina, Mass, South Dakota, conducted shore bombardment from 1942 forward.

            Yours is a quote/observation from the 1944 battle for Saipan. I havn't pulled up a Naval OOB for Saipan but it may be the ships that took part in that operation that didn't train for shore bombardment. I know the ships that provided fire support for the actual invasion, both 14" BBs Tennessee and California.

            But by the Iwo/Okinawa invasions the "Lack of practice" reasoning would be very thin.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
              Yours is a quote/observation from the 1944 battle for Saipan. I havn't pulled up a Naval OOB for Saipan but it may be the ships that took part in that operation that didn't train for shore bombardment. I know the ships that provided fire support for the actual invasion, both 14" BBs Tennessee and California.
              The problem with Saipan is that the Marines were moving fast up the west side while the Army was moving slow up the east side.

              Also Kamikazis were having a field day sinking an average of 1 1/2 ships a day so the BB's (asl well as every other ship around) were concentrating more on AA fire than trying to figure out where the zig-zag line of advance was.
              Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post

                The problem with Saipan is that the Marines were moving fast up the west side while the Army was moving slow up the east side.

                Also Kamikazis were having a field day sinking an average of 1 1/2 ships a day so the BB's (asl well as every other ship around) were concentrating more on AA fire than trying to figure out where the zig-zag line of advance was.

                Kamikazes tactics didn't start until after Saipan. The first Kamikaze attack occurred on Oct 25, 1944 off the island of Leyte. Three months after the Saipan operation was over with.

                You may be thinking of Okinawa

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                  I think that is a general statement for that particular battle. Other fast BBs such as North Carolina, Mass, South Dakota, conducted shore bombardment from 1942 forward.

                  Yours is a quote/observation from the 1944 battle for Saipan. I havn't pulled up a Naval OOB for Saipan but it may be the ships that took part in that operation that didn't train for shore bombardment. I know the ships that provided fire support for the actual invasion, both 14" BBs Tennessee and California.

                  But by the Iwo/Okinawa invasions the "Lack of practice" reasoning would be very thin.
                  I vaguely remember reading similar observations about Okinawa, but I can't remember the source. But imo the older ships were part of the group specifically designated as a shore bombardment group, so it stands to reason that they would be better at it.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Johnny W View Post
                    I vaguely remember reading similar observations about Okinawa, but I can't remember the source. But imo the older ships were part of the group specifically designated as a shore bombardment group, so it stands to reason that they would be better at it.
                    The fast Battleships were also assigned to the Shore Bombardment groups.

                    Why didn't they get better at it?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                      The fast Battleships were also assigned to the Shore Bombardment groups.

                      Why didn't they get better at it?
                      For the fast battleships there could have been numerous reasons, Too inexperienced of a crew and more then likely the newer radars and range possibility. Captains of the newer ships such as the Iowas and South Dakotas probably wouldnt take the chance of hazzarding the ships to close to land maybe due to the quality of the charts at the time where as the older more experienced crews and Captains brought them in some cases almost into the surf. We have to remember this was WWII and not much was known experience wise about the close in waters surrounding the majority of the island hopping campaign nor the speed of the Japanese air cover that could be called in. Maybe just ordered to not hazzard a relatively brand new ship where as the older ones could have been deemed expendable. Could be lots of reasons including the various radar sets carried by the older ships and the newer ships. We know for certain that ships being masked by the FCR of other ships happened quite frequently when in close company but when they were alone it was a bit different.

                      The Korean War changed that for the Iowas, in two cases I know of they actually dropped anchor in the harbor they were shooting at, needless to say they were reprimanded for it, although their shooting was pretty good Naval command prudance demanded the ship be moving in hostile waters. That was the last time this occured until later in their lives.

                      In Vietnam USS New Jersey was restricted at times to steaming in a block grid 10 miles wide by 20 miles long for alot of her shoots perhaps one reason for her decent accuracy could be accounted to not being in close company with other ships her size and allowing her to concentrate on the shoot at hand. Maybe the newer radar sets carried onboard since every time they were recommisioned they carried updated radar sets and FCR.

                      As mentioned above there could have been alot of reasons for the newer ships to not be as good as the more seasoned ships. The radar sets alone differed from the old and the new.

                      And considering the idea that when the Iowas were launched in WWII shore bombardment was not high on the list of the duties the command considered for the ships to perform. Battleships were still shooting it out with other ships during this period and two moving targets are harder to gain accuracy on then one moving target so perhaps this is what they focused upon for the faster ships that could keep up if not surpass the Japanese battleline.
                      Last edited by Dreadnought; 20 May 09,, 13:42.
                      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                        The fast Battleships were also assigned to the Shore Bombardment groups.

                        Why didn't they get better at it?
                        Maybe they did get a little better at it, I haven't seen anything in writing one way or the other. But the fast battleships still didn't do shore bombardment as much as the older battleships did, because their primary mission was providing escort for the Carriers. The older ships just got a lot more practice at it. I read that Pennsylvania fired nearly twice as many rounds from her main gun as North Carolina did, and North Carolina was the first of the fast battleships to go into service. This happened because Pennsylvania was in the shore bombardment group while NC was escorting the Carriers.

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                        • #42
                          Admittedly they were not firing against beach defenses, etc., but how did the fast BBs do during the bombardments of the Home Islands in sumer 1945? Was it a matter that they were more effective since they were firing on structures rather than defense psitions?
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Admittedly they were not firing against beach defenses, etc., but how did the fast BBs do during the bombardments of the Home Islands in sumer 1945? Was it a matter that they were more effective since they were firing on structures rather than defense psitions?
                            *Landmarks were employed as well as spotting plus they could also match ranging from the other ships. They weren't just American but the British as well.

                            If you would like to watch http://abbot.us/DD629/kamaishi/
                            Last edited by Dreadnought; 20 May 09,, 19:29.
                            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                            • #44
                              admittedly I am a BB fanboy.

                              Does the modernized BB not have any place in areas such as the Persian Gulf? Specifically thinking of its armor, guns and capacity for missiles?

                              I'm just thinking of soft targets in a pond.

                              oh yeah,
                              *added
                              I think it was a good idea, if nothing else, it allowed us to try out some new technologies.
                              Sometimes we have to build a few models of something to experiment with new technologies.
                              Last edited by Native; 20 May 09,, 20:06.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                                Captains of the newer ships such as the Iowas and South Dakotas probably wouldnt take the chance of hazzarding the ships to close to land maybe due to the quality of the charts at the time where as the older more experienced crews and Captains brought them in some cases almost into the surf.
                                Thats not how the gunline works. They are not just sailing around. Their position is dictated.


                                As mentioned above there could have been alot of reasons for the newer ships to not be as good as the more seasoned ships. The radar sets alone differed from the old and the new.

                                And considering the idea that when the Iowas were launched in WWII shore bombardment was not high on the list of the duties the command considered for the ships to perform. Battleships were still shooting it out with other ships during this period and two moving targets are harder to gain accuracy on then one moving target so perhaps this is what they focused upon for the faster ships that could keep up if not surpass the Japanese battleline.
                                Accurate fire is not rocket science. Accurate fire against a stationary target. Accurate computation=good shooting. All the Fire Controllmen received the same training. The only variable here is gun caliber. The 14in gun was shown to be more accurate than the 16/50

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