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  • #61
    Originally posted by PanSonic View Post
    The Israeli government targets only legitimate targets and fires after checking its targets.
    So you're saying that every time Israel wounds or kills a civilian, that is an intentional act?

    Originally posted by PanSonic View Post
    Warfare is chaos and untidy, and no army has this "perfect weapon" which targets only combatants.
    Untrue. Its fairly simple to see to it that only enemy combatants are targeted. Of course, then your own casualties climb.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      In other words a human shield, and no moral high-ground for Israel.
      Yes, there is no moral high ground for a democratic country with a supreme court that disapproves torture and usage of human shield at all,
      to a country like the US which allows torture years after Israeli courts banned it and camps where people live in terrible conditions (to remind you a guy that smashed a 4 year old skull on rocks and killed her father in front of her - has a university degree studying in Israeli jail on Israeli expense).


      And let's not talk about the Hamas are very humane, in particular towards there own people.
      I guess Hamas street executing of opposing political figures, Palestinians suspected collaborating Israeli, general street justice, the inciting of racism, murder of innocent, blowing up buses, schools, teenager clubs and then celebrating there deaths (after debating of course if its moral and proper in there courts, justice system and society) cynical usage of children and woman, there extreme Islamic ideology of death - they are ten times more moral.


      Other then that you show no understanding of the situation in the middle east, you never spoke about the pros and cons of integration methods and morals and there are situations when they should be used or not.
      You don't even care to dismantle simple moral questions, maybe you expect the world to act like Sweden when it comes to there security.
      I'm sure we all can afford it and stay alive and safe.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by GraniteForge View Post
        So you're saying that every time Israel wounds or kills a civilian, that is an intentional act?



        Untrue. Its fairly simple to see to it that only enemy combatants are targeted. Of course, then your own casualties climb.
        Targeted, not hurt. No perfect weapon.
        When terrorists are firing from a crowd, there ain't no perfect weapon.
        When you attack a house where a sniper is firing from,
        you can kill his wife and 5 kids behind him.
        A house packed with enemies firing and explosives attacked from the air - you can kill civilians.
        Attack a military base and you can kill visitors or the secretaries.

        There is no country that will use swords while the enemy uses cynical tactics and modern firearms to not harm civilians- you do not watch out at any price for civilian's lives.
        Other then that is sounds like you have no military combat experience at all.
        In the field everything changes, and believe me it is similar to "chaos", only after the battle fog is gone you can see order.

        How many coalition troops where killed in Iraq from friendly fire?
        Tell me how the first soldiers were killed in the war in Afghanistan, who was targeted and who got hurt.
        When you target you don't target the correct many times, when you fire you don't control the bullet to the last seconds it hits.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by PanSonic View Post
          Yes, there is no moral high ground for a democratic country with a supreme court that disapproves torture and usage of human shield at all,
          Its not just the use of human shields, but of home destruction, water and land theft for settlements, denial of access to hospitals, blockade, bombing civillian neighbors well behind the front lines and out of rocket range, firing on, boarding, and sezing ships of mercy


          to a country like the US which allows torture years after Israeli courts banned it
          What the US does right or wrong has no legal bearing on Israeli's treaty commitments and international law.

          and camps where people live in terrible conditions (to remind you a guy that smashed a 4 year old skull on rocks and killed her father in front of her - has a university degree studying in Israeli jail on Israeli expense).
          Israel forces millions living in squalor- that is why you don't have peace. treat people like animals and they will behave like animals.

          And let's not talk about the Hamas are very humane, in particular towards there own people.
          I guess Hamas street executing of opposing political figures, Palestinians suspected collaborating Israeli, general street justice, the inciting of racism, murder of innocent, blowing up buses, schools, teenager clubs and then celebrating there deaths (after debating of course if its moral and proper in there courts, justice system and society) cynical usage of children and woman, there extreme Islamic ideology of death - they are ten times more moral.
          who cares, the war crimes Hamas commits do not predate Israeli crimes and do not excuse Israeli crimes. Israel is responsible for its own actions.

          Other then that you show no understanding of the situation in the middle east, you never spoke about the pros and cons of integration methods and morals and there are situations when they should be used or not.

          Blah blah like Israel understands the situation given that they have not figured out how to treat Palestinians like humans after 50 some years.

          You don't even care to dismantle simple moral questions, maybe you expect the world to act like Sweden when it comes to there security.
          I'm sure we all can afford it and stay alive and safe.
          Here is a simple moral question for you, actually a couple of them.

          How do you justify expanded settlements and water rights for those settlers at the expense of a native population already living in abject poverty?

          Why should I as an American continue to support Israel when they are obviously forcing more and more misery on the Palestinians and stealing any chance they have of being a viable state.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by PanSonic View Post
            ...
            Sure, now I understand: When Israeli civilians are killed, its because their attackers are vicious, bloodthirsty, ruthless, subhuman terrorists who are out to destroy civilization, but when Israelis kill civilians, its because of "chaos," "you can't control the bullets," "there is no perfect weapon," and "every other country is doing it." Thanks for clarifying your jingoistic, apologistic, and decidedly amoral position.

            Comment


            • #66
              I wont state right or wrong but one thing is for sure. Nobody is going to give the Palestinians anything until they renounce Hamas. You cannot have a geniune county loaded with terrorists controlling the government. Even if Israel and the Palastinians reach agreement Hamas will find a way to reopen the conflict. Hamas is doing nothing more then serving their masters back in Iran. Nothing more,nothing less. Until that changes get used to what you see and call as the norm.;)
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                I wont state right or wrong but one thing is for sure. Nobody is going to give the Palestinians anything until they renounce Hamas. You cannot have a geniune county loaded with terrorists controlling the government. Even if Israel and the Palastinians reach agreement Hamas will find a way to reopen the conflict. Hamas is doing nothing more then serving their masters back in Iran. Nothing more,nothing less. Until that changes get used to what you see and call as the norm.;)
                And you won't break Hamas until you remove the ilelgal settlements, share the water and do something about the poverty and lack of jobs.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by GraniteForge View Post
                  Sure, now I understand: When Israeli civilians are killed, its because their attackers are vicious, bloodthirsty, ruthless, subhuman terrorists who are out to destroy civilization, but when Israelis kill civilians, its because of "chaos," "you can't control the bullets," "there is no perfect weapon," and "every other country is doing it." Thanks for clarifying your jingoistic, apologistic, and decidedly amoral position.
                  I'm saying the unintended killing of civilians is unavoidable.
                  Purely the intended killing of civilian is unaccepted.
                  I think I have explained myself enough, extract whatever example you will out of it.
                  Last edited by PanSonic; 08 Apr 09,, 21:13.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by zraver View Post
                    Its not just the use of human shields, but of home destruction, water and land theft for settlements, denial of access to hospitals, blockade, bombing civillian neighbors well behind the front lines and out of rocket range, firing on, boarding, and sezing ships of mercy


                    Why should I as an American continue to support Israel when they are obviously forcing more and more misery on the Palestinians and stealing any chance they have of being a viable state.
                    Home destruction? will you ask yourself for what? is it right? and what use comes out of it? Come back to me then.

                    "ships of mercy" is the Karin A a ship of "mercy" for you?

                    Palestinian economy and welfare is an Israeli interest, but also is Israeli defense.

                    Settlements...Is all of the west bank a Palestinian land?
                    Is Jerusalem Palestinian land?
                    Go check that out and come back to me.

                    Do you know why Israel uses roadblocks? did you even ask yourself?


                    lol..."well behind front lines".

                    In Gaza the front lines are the heart of the city and camp, as I said before if you would only read - the battle field is not chosen by Israelis.
                    This is why it's called a-semantic warfare.
                    Hamas chooses the battle field and war houses, which is in there own homes, hospitals, religious centers, schools, etc.

                    Go debate someone else and waste his time.
                    See you around the forum.
                    Last edited by PanSonic; 08 Apr 09,, 21:28.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Israel forces millions living in squalor- that is why you don't have peace. treat people like animals and they will behave like animals.
                      Treat them well and they'll kill you. I think it's a fair trade.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        gunnut,

                        Treat them well and they'll kill you. I think it's a fair trade.
                        not sure when the israelis have ever "treated them well".
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          gunnut,



                          not sure when the israelis have ever "treated them well".
                          Never. That's why Israel still exists.

                          I support a 2 state solution. Palestinians deserve to have a piece of land. But they didn't seem to be too happy living next to Israel. They haven't since 1948.
                          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I'm gonna get to the end of all this, it just that it takes some time.
                            L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              [QUOTE=PanSonic;630726]

                              Settlements...Is all of the west bank a Palestinian land?
                              All of the land and the percentage of water the Palestinians had at the end of the 1967 War is theirs.

                              Is Jerusalem Palestinian land?
                              Go check that out and come back to me.
                              Jerusalem is Israles

                              Do you know why Israel uses roadblocks? did you even ask yourself?
                              It does not matter, international law and the responsibilities of the occupying power matter.


                              lol..."well behind front lines".
                              I was referring to Tyre and Beruit


                              Go debate someone else and waste his time.
                              See you around the forum.
                              Run away then.

                              I am an ally of Israel, but the Palestinians are human

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                The Israelis keep touting the fact that they have no choice but to stay and fight. It's a mystery to me why they ignore the fact that the Palestinians don't have a choice but to stay and fight.

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