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  • #16
    Originally posted by xinhui View Post
    noted they continue to use the captured US M-79 grenade launcher
    Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
    M79 was listed as one of the best weapon in Vietnam war. Vietnamese soldiers like it very much. Since Vietnam doesn't have advance rifles with grenade launchers, the M79 will stay with the VPA for a longer time.
    I have to say, I was a bit startled when I first glanced at that picture.

    My first thought was "Hey those look like M79 'Thump Guns'..."
    My second thought was "Hey those are M79 'Thump Guns'..."

    Then I read the subsequent posts and realized those are probably from captured or abandoned American and South Vietnamese Army stocks.

    Makes good sense, as it's a very simple and effective weapon.

    I'm wondering if they were put to large-scale use during the 1978 Cambodian–Vietnamese War or the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War?

    Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
    Beside that, this time it seems Vietnam has found stock of Western weapon somewhere. M113 and Huey are back in service.

    Colt M4A1, MP5 and Uzi have been seen with special recon. force and special police.
    I'm guessing that "somewhere" is Israel.

    Although for the MP5, I'm rather curious as to where they were obtained...unless of course Germany has no problems with small arms sales to Vietnam.

    Wiki lists Vietnam as an MP5 operator, specifically "Battalion special police" just as VietPhuong mentioned.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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    • #17
      PLA used them during their Wars with Vietnam.
      Attached Files
      “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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      • #18
        Such a rare photo. I guess it was not from 1979 due to their uniforms and the gun is a captured from Vietnam side?

        TopHatter: Captured US weapons were used massively in Cambodia War. Some played important roles like A37 and M113. 1979 war was an unexpected and unprepared one. Beside some Vietnamese regular divisions, militia was ill equiped, even with French era and WWII weapons. Nowadays they have better weapons like AR15 and M16.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
          1979 war was an unexpected and unprepared one.
          You could've fooled me.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            You could've fooled me.
            So? You should say more. I want to do surgery on your post. ;)

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            • #21
              You had fortifications up the ying-yang. You mapped out all the possible approaches and had platoon size emplacements blocking every bend in the road. Minefields and Kill zones were set up, marked. You even knew where the best places to kill tanks were. Unlike the Chinese, you did not ran out of ammo and water. All your LOCs were planned out to the point that withdrawing a division from Cambodia was no big deal (ie, no traffic jams).

              You knew the Chinese were coming and you planned for it.

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              • #22
                At that time there were 1 or 2 regular divisions in every border province. When a unit is assigned to defend an area, those activities which you mentioned are the normal thing they should do. Still nobody in Vietnam expected China to attack. There was no strategic defense plan for a large scale attack. While PRC evacuated their people from Soviet border, Hanoi didn't do the same. It was the reason of extremely high civilian casuality later (and thanks for the communist comradeship of China).
                When the war occured, not only the Hanoi was supprised but even those units at the border were caught off guard. Many strong points were lost in the first day because soldiers were not in the post or didn't pay attention to Chinese movement. Border civilians even confused Chinese soldiers as Vietnamese ones and only realised there was a war when they were shot at.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                  At that time there were 1 or 2 regular divisions in every border province. When a unit is assigned to defend an area, those activities which you mentioned are the normal thing they should do. Still nobody in Vietnam expected China to attack. There was no strategic defense plan for a large scale attack.
                  Funny how all those emplacements and fall back positions were facing north. And your LOCs ran south, not East-West.

                  Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                  While PRC evacuated their people from Soviet border, Hanoi didn't do the same.
                  All you're telling me here is that Hanoi under-estimated the depth of Chinese OPOBJs.

                  Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                  It was the reason of extremely high civilian casuality later (and thanks for the communist comradeship of China).
                  And yet, Hanoi never paniced about evacuating civilians and instead concentrated on holding the line.

                  Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                  When the war occured, not only the Hanoi was supprised but even those units at the border were caught off guard. Many strong points were lost in the first day because soldiers were not in the post or didn't pay attention to Chinese movement. Border civilians even confused Chinese soldiers as Vietnamese ones and only realised there was a war when they were shot at.
                  The Chinese achieved tactical surprise but that does not explain why Vietnamese lines did not collapse. Frankly, your position does not explain why the Vietnamese never ran out of ammo ... unless they were expecting war.

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                  • #24
                    VP,

                    I am just wondering how the event of force relocation of 300,000 Chinese in north Vietnam back to China in 1978 is being covered in Vietnam's historical narrative
                    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      Funny how all those emplacements and fall back positions were facing north. And your LOCs ran south, not East-West.
                      Why later they needed Soviet's help for an ALOC? Why it took their strongest amoured group too much time to move north so it had no chance to join the battle at all?

                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      All you're telling me here is that Hanoi under-estimated the depth of Chinese OPOBJs.
                      There was no estimated depth. Nobody had any ideas what the heck the Chinese wanted by attacking Vietnam. Right after the war started, a second line of defense was builded and an evacuation plan of Hanoi was made. If Hanoi was that confident, why they needed a military pact with Soviet?

                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      And yet, Hanoi never paniced about evacuating civilians and instead concentrated on holding the line.
                      Yes, they didn't have panic but they did make an evacuation plan. Vietnam government is not Imperial Japanese style.

                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      The Chinese achieved tactical surprise but that does not explain why Vietnamese lines did not collapse. Frankly, your position does not explain why the Vietnamese never ran out of ammo ... unless they were expecting war.
                      You tell me one battle when the Chinese was out of ammo and the Vietnamese just fired like in Rambo movie and I will tell you where the ammo came from. And seriously, Vietnamese soldiers were in defensive position, why should they ran out of ammo then? Ah, yes, some units did. They were out of support weapon ammo so they had to stand helplessly watching the Chinese passing by their strong points.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                        VP,

                        I am just wondering how the event of force relocation of 300,000 Chinese in north Vietnam back to China in 1978 is being covered in Vietnam's historical narrative
                        Sorry, i didn't read your post carefully.

                        They were not mentioned as soldiers but "construction workers and experts". When relations turned bad, PRC was said "withdrew all supports" but it was not interpreted as signal of war.

                        If you talk about history book, there was actually a war so it is a different point of view.
                        Last edited by VietPhuong; 28 Jul 09,, 20:07.

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                        • #27
                          VP, you are confusing a lot of issues regarding strategic, operational, and tactical situations. You are applying strategic level thinking onto a tactical situation that does not apply.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          Why later they needed Soviet's help for an ALOC? Why it took their strongest amoured group too much time to move north so it had no chance to join the battle at all?
                          If it's there, why wouldn't you use it? If help was offered, why refuse it? You're not making sense here.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          There was no estimated depth. Nobody had any ideas what the heck the Chinese wanted by attacking Vietnam.
                          Oh come on! The first thing is to identify the divisions involved and the second is to draw a line when they would be exhausted. In fact, the Chinese were exhausted alot earlier than planned. This is basic stuff, especially for a Hanoi Staff that marched all the way to Saigon.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          Right after the war started, a second line of defense was builded
                          It was already built. It just needed to be manned.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          and an evacuation plan of Hanoi was made.
                          And also plans to re-enforce the capital. Guess which got put into action.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          If Hanoi was that confident, why they needed a military pact with Soviet?
                          The Pact was made before the war

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          Yes, they didn't have panic but they did make an evacuation plan.
                          Prudent action but a mere contigency. There was more action in blocking the road to Hanoi from the North than there was to open the road south for escape.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          Vietnam government is not Imperial Japanese style.
                          No, but you were confident you could hold the Chinese.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          You tell me one battle when the Chinese was out of ammo
                          And here is where you are mixing up concepts of strategic, operational, and tactical situations. Eight days into the initial attack, all Chinese advances stopped as they regroup, consolidate, and resupplied, and re-oriented themselves.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          and the Vietnamese just fired like in Rambo movie and I will tell you where the ammo came from.
                          You are speaking of the tactical situation. Look at the Operational requirements.

                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          And seriously, Vietnamese soldiers were in defensive position, why should they ran out of ammo then?
                          Because a man can only carry about 300 rounds or so. Defence or offence, you will go through that in less than a day of combat. That means that you have to resupply your men in some shape or form, especially water. That kind of expenditure, whether offence or defence, will drain any force not prepared for it. In short, you were prepared.


                          Originally posted by VietPhuong View Post
                          Ah, yes, some units did. They were out of support weapon ammo so they had to stand helplessly watching the Chinese passing by their strong points.
                          They were overran. Again, you are mixing up tactical and operational concepts. Your lines did not collapse and that can only happen if your lines were ready. Anyone telling you otherwise is p!ssing on your leg.

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                          • #28
                            was talking about civilian who migrated to Vietnam mostly from Qing dynasty, not aid workers. Most of them never been to China nor speak Chinese
                            “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              VP, you are confusing a lot of issues regarding strategic, operational, and tactical situations. You are applying strategic level thinking onto a tactical situation that does not apply.
                              OK.. I am not a military expert. From soldiers point of view, there were many complaints from both soldiers who fought and who didn't have to chance to fight about poor intelligence before the war. From government point of view, if they did know about Chinese attack, they reacted very strangely. Later after Hanoi knew China would not hesitate to use excessive force to solve their problem, they maintained 600,000 troops on the border, not only few divisions. And about the evacuation, I still can not believe they could have made such a stupid decision. Not their style.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                                was talking about civilian who migrated to Vietnam mostly from Qing dynasty, not aid workers. Most of them never been to China nor speak Chinese
                                Lol and sorry again. It was partly your fault since you threw in something which has little to do with what I am arguing with Mr.OOE.

                                Well, Vietnamese history books wrote those people were roused by Chinese spies to leave Vietnam. They were promised a better life in China. The cause for me was still unclear. I only know when they reached Vietnam-China border, they were stopped by Chinese force and there was a refugee crisis at that time. Vietnam's solution was .. to push them to China's side while Chinese border force pushed them back. After many melees with Kungfu style between two border forces, Vietnam successfully pushed all of them out.
                                Last time I heard they have a very hard life in China and they are subject to racism and alienation from local Chinese government?
                                I am not sure about other North Vietnam provinces but at the moment, there are still many Chineses living in Hanoi. When I was there, I used to go to their restaurants in Ta Hien street. I also know a girl with Chinese origin but as you said, except her grandmother, the whole family can not read and write Chinese. I think officially there was no ethnic cleansing policy in Hanoi. Had they done anything secretly to make the "unloyal" Chineses go, I don't know. Have to research more.

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