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Do we need tax reform?

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  • Do we need tax reform?

    I would propose we tax only sales of consumer goods. As we now have it, we are taxed in a hit or miss fashion.

    On a sales tax, even those who gained their money through illegal means support this bloated pig that needs a diet. (But that is the makings for another thread)
    9
    Yes
    33.33%
    3
    Yes, but it will never happen
    55.56%
    5
    No
    11.11%
    1
    Last edited by JOgershok; 22 Feb 09,, 07:07.
    J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

  • #2
    If the discrepancy between the actual price of the good or service and the price of that good or service with a sales tax were high enough, it would encourage a black market in just about everything.

    I should also point out that sales taxes are regressive. Working your way down the income ladder, people spend more of their income.

    The VAT is the response to the failure of what you're advocating. It is assessed at each level of the chain supply on the difference in price between the inputs and outputs. Still regressive, though.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JOgershok View Post
      On a sales tax, even those who gained their money through illegal means support this bloated pig that needs a diet. (But that is the makings for another thread)
      Not so. There is an underground economy for virtually everything, and people who live entirely within it do not contribute to or move in the regular economy much at all.

      I think that the best solution is to sharply reduce spending, and move back towards the original system where government income comes from excise taxes and user fees.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GraniteForge View Post
        I think that the best solution is to sharply reduce spending, and move back towards the original system where government income comes from excise taxes and user fees.
        In that case, there would be absolutely no Social Security or Medicare, at the very least.

        Such a model may have been appropriate in the 19th century, but times have changed. Ron Paul would probably love that idea.
        "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
          In that case, there would be absolutely no Social Security or Medicare, at the very least.

          Such a model may have been appropriate in the 19th century, but times have changed. Ron Paul would probably love that idea.
          Fine with me. Such a system is still entirely appropriate now.

          Get those lazy bums to stop picking mine and every other worker's pockets, and this will be a much better country. Its not enough that people on welfare get free broadband Internet and cable or satellite TV, now they also get free cell phones with unlimited service. Its wrong, and its un-American.

          But Ron Paul? That hypocrite is not for me.
          Last edited by GraniteForge; 22 Feb 09,, 09:15. Reason: add

          Comment


          • #6
            Value Added Tax

            Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
            If the discrepancy between the actual price of the good or service and the price of that good or service with a sales tax were high enough, it would encourage a black market in just about everything.

            I should also point out that sales taxes are regressive. Working your way down the income ladder, people spend more of their income.

            The VAT is the response to the failure of what you're advocating. It is assessed at each level of the chain supply on the difference in price between the inputs and outputs. Still regressive, though.
            You mean what the EU has. Actually it gets the tourists too, for the most part. They tell you that a refund is available when you are leaving but unless you let them ship it at an additional cost, it is not worth the hassle for the refund.

            Ask the Kennedy's how they made their fortune?
            J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

            Comment


            • #7
              So basically, we'd have to pay a fee each time we pull out of our driveway and go somewhere. If one were to have their home catch on fire, he'd have to arrange payment with the fire department before they begin putting the fire out. Pay the police for arresting a person who committed a crime against one of us, or for patrolling our neighborhood.

              I can think of a million other examples.
              "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GraniteForge View Post
                Its not enough that people on welfare get free broadband Internet and cable or satellite TV, now they also get free cell phones with unlimited service. Its wrong, and its un-American.

                But Ron Paul? That hypocrite is not for me.
                Really? I haven't read about those programs can you give me some sources on that? It surprises me considering what a small part of our budget welfare is. Medicare and social security are taxed separate from fica. If you eliminated medicare and social security and the appropriate taxes you would need to raise fica taxes by 20 percent to cover the left over expenses.


                I know the President is talking about rural broadband which has all us city folks paying for the otherwise unprofitable lines to connect people in Palin's America who do work but I would be pissed if I was paying for people who don't work to get the internet.
                Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
                ~Ronald Reagan

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GraniteForge View Post
                  Its not enough that people on welfare get free broadband Internet and cable or satellite TV, now they also get free cell phones with unlimited service. Its wrong, and its un-American.

                  But Ron Paul? That hypocrite is not for me.
                  Really? I haven't read about those programs can you give me some sources on that? It surprises me considering what a small part of our budget welfare is.

                  President's actual budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:
                  $586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
                  $548.8 billion (+9.0%) - Defense[2]
                  $394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
                  $294.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
                  $276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
                  $243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
                  $89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
                  $76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
                  $72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
                  $43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
                  $33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
                  $32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
                  $27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
                  $26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
                  $25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
                  $20.5 billion (+0.8%) - Energy
                  $20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government
                  This doesn't include war costs as they use accounting tricks to keep that off budget.
                  I voted yes because our system is too flat with the regressive social security and medicare taxes
                  Last edited by Roosveltrepub; 22 Feb 09,, 11:39.
                  Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
                  ~Ronald Reagan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                    Really? I haven't read about those programs can you give me some sources on that? It surprises me considering what a small part of our budget welfare is.

                    President's actual budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:
                    $586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
                    $548.8 billion (+9.0%) - Defense[2]
                    $394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
                    $294.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
                    $276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
                    $243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
                    $89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
                    $76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
                    $72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
                    $43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
                    $33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
                    $32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
                    $27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
                    $26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
                    $25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
                    $20.5 billion (+0.8%) - Energy
                    $20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government
                    This doesn't include war costs as they use accounting tricks to keep that off budget.
                    I voted yes because our system is too flat with the regressive social security and medicare taxes
                    First question: Was this passed by the Congress, who are the only branch of government who can authorize he spending of money?

                    If not, then what are the actual figures?

                    If these are then, the big percentage winner was Community and regional development for Pelosi and Company.

                    Looks like seniors got the lions share.
                    $586.1 billion
                    $394.5 billion
                    $980.6 billion


                    BUT I thought this was a trust fund and should be off budget? BTW, Medicaid is part of welfare entitlements.
                    J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JOgershok View Post
                      First question: Was this passed by the Congress, who are the only branch of government who can authorize he spending of money?

                      If not, then what are the actual figures?

                      If these are then, the big percentage winner was Community and regional development for Pelosi and Company.

                      Looks like seniors got the lions share.
                      $586.1 billion
                      $394.5 billion
                      $980.6 billion


                      BUT I thought this was a trust fund and should be off budget? BTW, Medicaid is part of welfare entitlements.
                      Look up a revenue chart. Those senior programs are paid for with taxes specifically deducted for them. So we should do what with poor people at a hospital? deny care? shoot them? or pay for it? I have to go out but your argument is specious and i will post the relevant data later. So with medicaid welfare costs 5% of of your fica taxes and that is the outrageous rip off blowing the budget. That's equal to the debt service payment run for the debt run up under the Republican run congress and White house earlier in the decade.
                      Last edited by Roosveltrepub; 22 Feb 09,, 16:05.
                      Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
                      ~Ronald Reagan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think we need some form of Tax reform however I do not see congress ever working on anything that would benefit the population without it benefiting them.

                        Originally posted by GraniteForge
                        Its not enough that people on welfare get free broadband Internet and cable or satellite TV, now they also get free cell phones with unlimited service. Its wrong, and its un-American.
                        I was not aware that was the plan. If it is then that would be criminal to every working American. I know I saw the proposal for increasing internet coverage. The only people I was aware of that got free cell service (and then it was limited) was programs set up for battered spouses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          a sales tax is a nice idea, but it would need to be moderated somehow- the poor spend as a proportion of their income far more than the rich. it's easy to save for a luxury when you have plenty of disposable income, it is far harder to save for a necessity when you do not.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                            Look up a revenue chart.
                            You are on the hook for looking it up not me.

                            Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                            Those senior programs are paid for with taxes specifically deducted for them.
                            Is that not what I said?

                            Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                            So we should do what with poor people at a hospital? deny care? shoot them? or pay for it?
                            What have hospitals always done with poor people. We treated them regardless of their immigration status or ability to pay. Also it is not like the seniors were kicked to the curb as I think you are intimating. They received the LION's share of these monies budgeted under a Democratic Congress [These are the numbers YOU supplied after all.] Forgive me but this is how votes are bought with someone else's money.

                            Or the poor:
                            $294.0 billion - Unemployment and welfare
                            $276.4 billion - Medicaid and other health related
                            Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                            I have to go out but your argument is specious and i will post the relevant data later.
                            The facts are the ones you supplied, I only pointed out the discrepancies in them and your stating that WELFARE was such a small portion. There is more to Social Welfare programs that one budgeted item. The "entitlement programs ie. AFDC, Food Stamps, Medicare, Section 8 housing, SSI, SSDI, some education programs are all part of welfare.
                            Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                            So with medicaid welfare costs 5% of of your fica taxes and that is the outrageous rip off blowing the budget.
                            Where do you get this 5% figure for Medicare?

                            Employee's share of the Social Security portion of the tax is 6.2% of gross compensation up to a limit of $102,000 of compensation (resulting in a maximum of $6,324.00 in tax). The employee's share of the Medicare portion is 1.45% of wages with no limit. The employer is also liable for separate 6.2% and 1.45% Social Security and Medicare taxes, respectively, making the total Social Security tax 12.4% and the total Medicare tax 2.9% of wages. (Self-employed people are responsible for the entire FICA percentage of 15.3% (= 12.4% + 2.9%), since they are both the employer and the employed.

                            Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                            That's equal to the debt service payment run for the debt run up under the Republican run congress and White house earlier in the decade.
                            I am astonished that you can see nothing wrong with "The Emperor's New Clothes" but blame it all on the Republicans. There is plenty of blame to go around. The SCHIPS program was Pelosi and Company's buy off comparable to the BUSH's Prescription Drug Plan for seniors. The problem is that the limits were moved up so high, with the NEW AND IMPROVED version, that families that can afford insurance for their children will now rely on "Mommy Government" because they are entitled to this benefit. Both are but one step closer to Government Run Healthcare. Being the apologist for unions, Democrats, and some other ne'er-do-well's is getting old. You and Keith Olbermann need adjoining offices.

                            Back up for a second and see that big government IS THE PROBLEM. I have yet to see a government run program do so efficiently.
                            J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              a sales tax is a nice idea, but it would need to be moderated somehow- the poor spend as a proportion of their income far more than the rich. it's easy to save for a luxury when you have plenty of disposable income, it is far harder to save for a necessity when you do not.
                              Pennsylvania does not charge sales tax on necessities like groceries and cleaning supplies (sweeper bags are included.) Prepared foods, like sandwiches are taxed. How is that for a start?
                              J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

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