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  • Al- Andalus

    I wish to start a thread on the history of Al-Andulus from its rise to its fall and what impact it has had on history.

  • #2
    Originally posted by great one View Post
    I wish to start a thread on the history of Al-Andulus from its rise to its fall and what impact it has had on history.
    Then start typing

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    • #3
      My question is how likely is it that navigators from medieval Al-Andulusa made contact with the indiginous peoples of the Americas. It has been histoically documented by the medieval muslim historian Abu Bakr Ibn Umar Al-Gutiyya, that another muslim navigator Ibn Farrukh sailed across the Atlantic in february 999

      He landed in the canary islands and made contact with the Guanche ( native peoples of the canary islands) and their king Guanariga. He returned to Al-Andulus in May 999.

      Is it possible then that Ibn Farrukh or other muslim navigators from Al-Andulusa made contact with native American Indians?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by great one View Post
        My question is how likely is it that navigators from medieval Al-Andulusa made contact with the indiginous peoples of the Americas. It has been histoically documented by the medieval muslim historian Abu Bakr Ibn Umar Al-Gutiyya, that another muslim navigator Ibn Farrukh sailed across the Atlantic in february 999

        He landed in the canary islands and made contact with the Guanche ( native peoples of the canary islands) and their king Guanariga. He returned to Al-Andulus in May 999.

        Is it possible then that Ibn Farrukh or other muslim navigators from Al-Andulusa made contact with native American Indians?
        Anything is possible but it's extremely unlikely.
        No Compass.
        Lateen rig.
        The Canary Islands are only a fraction of the distance to America.
        No documentation.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

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        • #5
          Originally posted by great one View Post
          My question is how likely is it that navigators from medieval Al-Andulusa made contact with the indiginous peoples of the Americas.

          Is it possible then that Ibn Farrukh or other muslim navigators from Al-Andulusa made contact with native American Indians?
          Pari has it right.

          They were great scientists and astronomers, but poor open-water sailors. Their ships were not designed or rigged for the task.

          I am not aware of any documentation that such a voyage was even attempted, but it is very doubtful that it would have been successful.

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          • #6
            Thank you for your answers, they have been helpful to me. I now wish to discuss the philosophy of Al-Andulus and in particular the philosopher Averoes. I was wondering how much of an impact Averroes had on Western secular thought?

            My second question is how much did Averroes influence the catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by great one View Post
              Thank you for your answers, they have been helpful to me. I now wish to discuss the philosophy of Al-Andulus and in particular the philosopher Averoes. I was wondering how much of an impact Averroes had on Western secular thought?

              My second question is how much did Averroes influence the catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas?
              Abū 'l-Walīd Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad ibn Rushd
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

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              • #8
                In order to properly answer your second question, one would have to be familiar and discuss Averroes, Thomas de Aquino and Aristotle.

                One decisive influence of Al-Andalus in western thought in general, was the preservation and later transmission of Greek philosophy and science, specially through the Toledo School of translators:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_...ledo_School.22

                Among the many works recovered through their translation from Arabic were books from Aristotle and Ptolemy's Almagest.
                L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                • #9
                  I am familar with the translation of Greek texts into Arabic and Latin by Arab and some Western scholars during the time of Al-Andulus. My question is how much did the religous Zeal that accompanied the recapture of Al-Andulus by Isabella of Catille and Ferdinand of Aragon inspire Christopher Columbus on his voyage of discovery that ultimately discovered the Americas.

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                  • #10
                    I would think the extra capital (money) available to the crown seems a more likely suspect than religous zeal. That the year signifying the formal end of Moorish rule in Iberia and the year of Columbus' discovery of the New World coincided I think is coincidental. I imagine that Columbus was petitioning the crown for money his voyage (by which he proposed to find a direct route to Asia by sailing west) for quite some time before 1492. It may well be that the conclusion of the hostilities in Spain freed up a vast sum of money that had been previously spent on military action. Wouldn't it be much easier to hand that crazy Columbus his bag of gold and send him on his way (hopefully never to come back)? Especially now that you don't need the money to fight a more pressing and nearby enemy? I always thought that Columbus had more zeal for money that the opening of an easy trade route to Asia would bring him, than any thought of evangelizing in Asia did. It is my understanding that Columbus made a few more voyages after that first one, always in search of his short sea-lane to China. Now the Spanish conquistadors that followed him into the newly discovered Americas, they may have had a bit more religious zeal... Of course, they also had a zeal for the money too...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pate View Post
                      I would think the extra capital (money) available to the crown seems a more likely suspect than religous zeal. That the year signifying the formal end of Moorish rule in Iberia and the year of Columbus' discovery of the New World coincided I think is coincidental. I imagine that Columbus was petitioning the crown for money his voyage (by which he proposed to find a direct route to Asia by sailing west) for quite some time before 1492. It may well be that the conclusion of the hostilities in Spain freed up a vast sum of money that had been previously spent on military action. Wouldn't it be much easier to hand that crazy Columbus his bag of gold and send him on his way (hopefully never to come back)? Especially now that you don't need the money to fight a more pressing and nearby enemy? I always thought that Columbus had more zeal for money that the opening of an easy trade route to Asia would bring him, than any thought of evangelizing in Asia did. It is my understanding that Columbus made a few more voyages after that first one, always in search of his short sea-lane to China. Now the Spanish conquistadors that followed him into the newly discovered Americas, they may have had a bit more religious zeal... Of course, they also had a zeal for the money too...
                      The black death and collapse of the Mongol empire in the 1300's and the loss of Constantinople in the mid 1400's all but put an end to the silk road. To get the spices and silks are reasonable rates and in the amounts desired Europe needed a way to Asia. Plus Mideastern middlemen wanted gold. Europe was not yet making much the rest of the world wanted.

                      Portugal was already looking for a way around Africa and had set up the beginnings of a sugar industry in the newly discovered Azores. DeGama would find the Cape of Africa in 1497. Thus there was a bit of a race on.

                      For the Spanish a direct route west would mean huge rewards, risking 3 ships was not much of an investment. On top of this Europe had quite suddenly become the leader in ocean going ship technology. The Portuguese caravel when mated with the Arabic lanteen sail could sail around the world.

                      Now heres a brain buster from history. The Portugese pushed the line of demarkation between the discoveries they and the Spanish made back past what would become Brazil. Why, unless they knew about Brazil before its official discovery in 1500.

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                      • #12
                        It is interesting to note that around this time Marco Polo had just returned from China and had published a book about his travels. There were people who believed the Earth was flat at this time and so they believe that if they sailed West across the Atlantic they would reach china and the Orient.

                        My question is how influential was Marco Polo`s book" The travels of Marco Polo" in influencing Christopher Columbus to go on his voyage of discovery and how influential was it it influencing the Soanish royals to fund him?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by great one View Post
                          It is interesting to note that around this time Marco Polo had just returned from China and had published a book about his travels. There were people who believed the Earth was flat at this time and so they believe that if they sailed West across the Atlantic they would reach china and the Orient.

                          My question is how influential was Marco Polo`s book" The travels of Marco Polo" in influencing Christopher Columbus to go on his voyage of discovery and how influential was it it influencing the Soanish royals to fund him?
                          Marco Polo had been dead for centuries by the end of the Reconquista. However his writings, and the taste for spices and silks developed during the Crusades and later secured by Mongol control of the Silk road created an appetite for luxury goods. Thus when the trade collapsed and the Ottomans were in ascendancy it was natural to look for another way to get them, and if possible access to the African gold.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Now heres a brain buster from history. The Portugese pushed the line of demarkation between the discoveries they and the Spanish made back past what would become Brazil. Why, unless they knew about Brazil before its official discovery in 1500.
                            Yes!

                            I also wondered about this. And you know what? I don't think there is a definitive answer.

                            The salient point about the Treaty of Tordesillas June 7, 1494 is that Portugal go East and Spain go West. For them it must have been about the World being definitely round, not about America, and they proceeded to cut it in two like an orange

                            However, then why would the Portuguese negotiate the line of demarcation West of the Cape Verde Islands if they didn't know Brazil existed?

                            From wiki:

                            "some historians contend that the Portuguese knew of the South American bulge that makes up most of Brazil before this time,...Maps of new territories and accounts of voyages previously taken by the Portuguese were not permitted to be published in Portugal at the time, and this would explain the prudent foresight that the Portuguese exhibited in their persuasion of Spain to sign the treaty."

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas


                            There are some hints of some kind of knowledge of America before the actual arrival, (Pizzigano, Fra Mauro, Andreas Bianco).
                            Last edited by Castellano; 11 Feb 09,, 00:05.
                            L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by great one View Post
                              My question is how much did the religous Zeal that accompanied the recapture of Al-Andulus by Isabella of Catille and Ferdinand of Aragon inspire Christopher Columbus on his voyage of discovery that ultimately discovered the Americas.
                              None.

                              The Almagest was far, far more important for sure. It is interesting that at that time it was accepted that Ptolomy was right in calculating 80.000 stadiums for the circumference of the Earth, or 28.350 km, when it is in reality 40.120 km.

                              This meant that America was theoretically at the distance of Cipango (Japan), something that confused Columbus/Colón.
                              L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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