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  • Well its Christmas time, so I was going to let it slide.

    But since you mentioned it

    I lost my kitty pictures, and dead chick on a recent computer glitch. But I still have this one:banana:
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    • I have been told by Australian Vietnam Vets, that the U.S tank crews were very impressed with the Centurion's cross (and through!) country performance, compared to their own M48's!

      I have also read that the Australian Centurion could take far more punishment from RCL's and RPG's than that of the U.S M48!

      I think it a great pity that the Australian Government never had the balls or guts to switch the Centurion's to the Army Reserve (but then again with the Australian government and the ADF as a whole its $$$$) - all they needed to do in my opinion was to drop a diesel engine in them for economic and performance improvement!!

      It is my understanding from the bucket's that I have operated with over the years - that the MBT in the Australian Army is used (and trained in) armoured gun-fire support than that of tank-to-tank combat (although granted, this could have changed with the introduction of the Abram and our wet dream of operating more and more with the U.S!)

      I have also read, that the now surplus Leopard 1's were offered to RSL's, but this offer was knocked back due to lack of RSL interest (predominantly due to the the RSL's incurring the cost of transporting them and facilitating them at the individual branches! Money they would prefer to spend on pokkie machines :(

      I for one would have preferred to have seen the 1st Armoured Regiment acquire the Leopard 2!

      Regards
      Pioneer

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      • Aren't your reserved arm'd regts, arm'd reccee?

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        • Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          I have been told by Australian Vietnam Vets, that the U.S tank crews were very impressed with the Centurion's cross (and through!) country performance, compared to their own M48's!
          a difference in doctrine more than anything.....

          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          I have also read that the Australian Centurion could take far more punishment from RCL's and RPG's than that of the U.S M48!
          Sources? again, doctrine differences meant employment and support differences.


          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          I think it a great pity that the Australian Government never had the balls or guts to switch the Centurion's to the Army Reserve (but then again with the Australian government and the ADF as a whole its $$$$) -
          whats the logic in sustaining 2 different tank types? the logistics train would have been ugly. In a small force you use the money wisely

          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          all they needed to do in my opinion was to drop a diesel engine in them for economic and performance improvement!!
          again, what's the benefit in maintaining disparate armoured sustainment esp when you're going to invest money in an asset that is obsolete on a modern battlefield anyway

          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          It is my understanding from the bucket's that I have operated with over the years
          what did you use and when and where was this?


          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          - that the MBT in the Australian Army is used (and trained in) armoured gun-fire support than that of tank-to-tank combat (although granted, this could have changed with the introduction of the Abram and our wet dream of operating more and more with the U.S!)
          the Centurion was never an MBT. The use of armour in an australian context was conflict specific - ie it was used in a jungle combat fire support issue using cannister in direct fire at the enemy - not a traditional role for tanks and a unique environment requirement at the time.

          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          I have also read, that the now surplus Leopard 1's were offered to RSL's, but this offer was knocked back due to lack of RSL interest (predominantly due to the the RSL's incurring the cost of transporting them and facilitating them at the individual branches! Money they would prefer to spend on pokkie machines :(
          they were also used for targetting practice and for proximity testing of other weapons systems - far more useful anyway

          Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
          I for one would have preferred to have seen the 1st Armoured Regiment acquire the Leopard 2!
          we were offered discount mates rates on Leo2's from a number of NATO partners - they were rejected by the blackhats for a reason - eg doctrine issues, cross training issues, hot swapping issues in coalition events, common sustainment with likely partners etc.....

          I like the Leo2, and I was involved in an up-armour program for the Leo1's to get (based on some Canadian) upgrades to bring them to some Leo2 performance and survivability, but for the life of me, I can't see any meaningful compelling reason as to why a Leo2 would be a better choice - and don't use the arguments touted in the newspapers about weight etc... as that was absolute tosh.
          Linkeden:
          http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
          http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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          • G'day gf0012-aust

            what did you use and when and where was this?
            Sorry mate, but I should have explained myself better - for when I said 'It is my understanding from the bucket's that I have operated with over the years' I meant tank crew and their Leopard 1's, as I'm an infantrymen - I was on the the ground, often using the K-Phone at the rear of the Leopard 1 (often trying to dry out!). I've never been a buckethead myself! :)

            Regards
            Pioneer

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Aren't your reserved arm'd regts, arm'd reccee?
              You are correct! But this has a lot to do with $ more than anything :(
              In fact even our Reserve units are/have lost their M113's for Parentee 6x6 - pretending to be M-113's
              It's been shatering and detrimental to moral :(

              Regards
              Pioneer

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              • Originally posted by Pioneer View Post
                You are correct! But this has a lot to do with $ more than anything :(
                In fact even our Reserve units are/have lost their M113's for Parentee 6x6 - pretending to be M-113's
                It's been shatering and detrimental to moral :(

                Regards
                Pioneer
                I worked on Perente. They were never intended to replace the M-113. The Perente's (6wd) were an Infantry mobility vehicle in the literal sense. ie designed to take troops to the fight, dismount and then go and get more etc... literally the role of the old light horse.

                the M-113 role was picked up by ASLAV's as the principle fast armoured gun bucket
                the biggest woftam foisted upon army was investing in the up engined and stretched M113, a significant waste of money for a dubious percentile of extra and questionable capability - all due to the fact that aust govt wanted to give local companies local work - and not due to any tactical military benefit.

                btw, Perentes (4wd) were not used as light horse elements, and the bulk of the (6wd) ended up as SAS gun trucks - and were very very popular with the american SF who regarded them as highly capable and some of them nicknamed them "mad maxes". Some were IMV, some were C2 trucks and some ended up as special weapons platforms and mules. very few ended up in the IMV role - and none took on any taxi roles a la the M113.
                Linkeden:
                http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                • Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                  All centurions are still in Oz in storage. They've never been offshore. (legal reasons even though they are demobbed)
                  gf0012,


                  At least 3 Centurions have been parked at a Sunday market at 'Caribean Gardens' in Melbourne for about 15 years and probably more.

                  And I always thought some Centurions served in Vietnam. Didn't Normie Rowe serve in them?



                  OC


                  PS,

                  Soon after the Centurions were replaced I saw an ad in the Melbourne paper for the tender of 200 surplus Rolls Royce engines. I wonder what ever happened to them?
                  Last edited by Old Codger; 29 Dec 10,, 06:12.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Old Codger View Post
                    ut 15 years and probably more.

                    And I always thought some Centurions served in Vietnam. Didn't Normie Rowe serve in them?


                    Soon after the Centurions were replaced I saw an ad in the Melbourne paper for the tender of 200 surplus Rolls Royce engines. I wonder what ever happened to them?
                    they did serve in vietnam, so I would have been referring to offshore since demobbing


                    the australian use of tanks for jungle warfare was one of the rewritten rule book issues. prior to the use of the cents everyone assumed that heavy tanks were useless for jungle warfare. cannister changed all that.

                    rod hadfield from castlemaine was after a few to make into rods. he has the only street registered merlin engined V12 roadcar (57 chev) in the world :)

                    its a slick piece of engineering and still sounds damn fierce even in a street car
                    Linkeden:
                    http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                    http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                    • I do not know much about engines, but i believe the RR 'Meteor' was a 'Merlin' geared down in some way to power a gearbox instead of a propeller.

                      It would be fun.


                      OC

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Old Codger View Post
                        I do not know much about engines, but i believe the RR 'Meteor' was a 'Merlin' geared down in some way to power a gearbox instead of a propeller.

                        It would be fun.
                        as you are in melb, you should make the pilgrimage to hadfields shop in castlemaine - the merlin powered chev is worth the petrol money in its own right

                        on another note, for the life of me I can't work out why I made that offshore comment re the cents when I've happily quoted the issue of cannister,jungle warfare, infantry support, vietnam, RAC for the last 20 years. I must have been having a first class brain fart or was referring to another context.
                        Linkeden:
                        http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                        http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                        • Didn't Normie Rowe serve in them?
                          For some reason I have him as a M113 man

                          gf0012-aust -
                          I worked on Perente..........
                          Thanks gf0012 - some very interesting info you have included!!

                          Old Codger


                          At least 3 Centurions have been parked at a Sunday market at 'Caribean Gardens' in Melbourne for about 15 years and probably more.
                          I will endeavor to get down there one day and take a look - Thanks!

                          I remember visiting the Grollo (as in Grollo Construction - GroCon) yard down in Preston (Victoria - not far from Northland Shopping Centre!!) about 15-years ago, when a good friend told me he had two Centurion's. He (Grollo senior!) was kind enough to let me crawl in and over them with my camera (I will endeavor to find the photo's!!). One was armed with a 20-pounder, the other with a L7 105mm gun. Grollo purchased them for their cross-country mobility, when he gain the contract to install the chairlift towers in the snowfields (Thredbo - I think?). When I asked him his intention of their future - he (Grollo senior) stated 'there not for sale!

                          Regards
                          Pioneer

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