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Should Israel return the Golan Heights to Syria?

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  • #31
    pari,

    Yet Israel effectively failed, so much for American support.
    The rules of war haven't changed and Lebanon itself demonstrated it yet again for those enamoured with air power: to win, you must take and hold the high ground.
    neither was israel really defeated. the point is that whatever military operations israel engages in, there is a LOT of american military backing. if the americans hadn't intervened in the hezbollah war, israel would have gone bingo ammo and gotten humiliated even worse than it was. if the syrians assault israel and actually somehow make headway with their antiquated military, you can bet the americans will eff up syria real bad. that's a strategic advantage that trumps ownership of the heights. in fact, if israel makes that trade and syria reneges, you can the americans will be that much more supportive of israeli efforts to "rectify" matters.
    Last edited by astralis; 10 Jan 09,, 19:46.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #32
      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
      Israel returned Gaza. Look at the peace and cooperation Israel got from Palestinians.
      Didn't they just build a fence around it and locked the Palis up, so what are you talking about?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Oscar View Post
        There was a risk with Egypt too.

        The best Syria could do would be to be acknowledged as a real adversary like Sadate was in 1973 and appear dangerous enough as to force the Israelis to negociate a land for peace agreement.
        There was no such risk with Egypt, they still have to cross the Suez just to get to Sinai, the Golan is pretty close for comfort.

        As far as land for peace being reasonable, where is there such precedent in other conflicts of it being reasonable. Arabs lost territory and then cry foul at the end of the game of dice.
        In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
        The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
          Didn't they just build a fence around it and locked the Palis up, so what are you talking about?
          Well a great deal of these boys and girls don't think Israel should exist, or believe it does not. So why would they care about a fence, if what is on the other side of the fence does not exist.

          What did Egypt do to help their Arab brothers in Gaza at this time, just asking?
          In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
          The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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          • #35
            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            pari,



            neither was israel really defeated. the point is that whatever military operations israel engages in, there is a LOT of american military backing. if the americans hadn't intervened in the hezbollah war, israel would have gone bingo ammo and gotten humiliated even worse than it was. if the syrians assault israel and actually somehow make headway with their antiquated military, you can bet the americans will eff up syria real bad. that's a strategic advantage that trumps ownership of the heights. in fact, if israel makes that trade and syria reneges, you can the americans will be that much more supportive of israeli efforts to "rectify" matters.
            But it makes Israel a client state of America. I'm willing to bet you can already make that argument but I don't think the Israelis would see it that way. Yes they take everything they can get, but I doubt they'd be willing to cede their own defence to America's whim. If for instance Obama's Democrat successor likes Israel less than Obama does and withdraws US support, Israel will still have lost the Golan heights but now not have America's support as compensation.
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
              Didn't they just build a fence around it and locked the Palis up, so what are you talking about?
              It's estimated that when Hamas broke the border wall between Egypt and Gaza, half the population went into Egypt to buy goods.
              What did they do then? Why they went back to Gaza. Not often you see prisoners voluntarily returning to their prison, is it?
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                There was no such risk with Egypt, they still have to cross the Suez just to get to Sinai, the Golan is pretty close for comfort.

                As far as land for peace being reasonable, where is there such precedent in other conflicts of it being reasonable. Arabs lost territory and then cry foul at the end of the game of dice.
                The Arabs kicked out the UN peace keepers, staged tanks and troops on the border to attack, and then lost the war and their lands. Sounds like what happens when kids play marbles and lose.
                J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                  Well a great deal of these boys and girls don't think Israel should exist, or believe it does not. So why would they care about a fence, if what is on the other side of the fence does not exist.

                  What did Egypt do to help their Arab brothers in Gaza at this time, just asking?
                  I asked the same question about Egypt. They have done nothing to help their Arab brothers. Stick a fork in me.
                  J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mobbme View Post
                    Was just wondering what would've happened if the Lebanese government snapped and joined Hezbollah to fight against Israel during the war? The Leb government warned Israel many times during Israel's assault in Lebanon but it didn't take no military action except that of peace keeping.
                    Hezbollah is an irregular Iranian guard unit. The Lebanese Govt. and Hezbollah did not get on. While it couldn't challenge Hezbollah directly, it wasn't unhappy over the degradation Hezbollah suffered at Israel's hands.
                    Not a snowballs chance in hell that the Leb. Govt. would have taken hezbollah's side.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                      Well a great deal of these boys and girls don't think Israel should exist, or believe it does not.
                      And how is concentrating them in a camp is going to change their perception of Isreal.

                      So why would they care about a fence, ...
                      The fence is cutting them out of the outer world, making them virtually prisoners in their own land.


                      What did Egypt do to help their Arab brothers in Gaza at this time, just asking?
                      Don't mix up the despotic Egyption government with the Egyption people, if there were free elections, they would have another government there.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                        It's estimated that when Hamas broke the border wall between Egypt and Gaza, half the population went into Egypt to buy goods.
                        What did they do then? Why they went back to Gaza. Not often you see prisoners voluntarily returning to their prison, is it?
                        Probably they had nowhere to go in Egypt and families to support in Gaza and maybe they just don't wont give up their land to Israel.
                        And the fact that half of them went shopping means that they are usually not free to do so, which means they are prisoners in camp. Quite the irony I think, when you look at the keeper.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                          Probably they had nowhere to go in Egypt and families to support in Gaza and maybe they just don't wont give up their land to Israel.
                          And yet again: Israel doesn't control nor occupy Gaza. Hamas does.
                          Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                          And the fact that half of them went shopping means that they are usually not free to do so, which means they are prisoners in camp. Quite the irony I think, when you look at the keeper.
                          Indeed. The keeper is Hamas, but this irony seems beyond you.
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                            And yet again: Israel doesn't control nor occupy Gaza. Hamas does.

                            Indeed. The keeper is Hamas, but this irony seems beyond you.
                            Those are still not quite accurate statements Parihaka. I don't know why you keep repeating them when I gave you evidence to the contrary. You haven't refuted that evidence except to give a vague answer that Egypt could be doing the same thing though you never gave an example.

                            http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/...%20website.pdf

                            I'm not justifying Hamas's actions, but neither is Israel completely blameless here. The status of Gaza is still in dispute, it is not sovereign, and Israel still has some legal responsibility for it.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Herodotus View Post
                              Those are still not quite accurate statements Parihaka. I don't know why you keep repeating them when I gave you evidence to the contrary. You haven't refuted that evidence except to give a vague answer that Egypt could be doing the same thing though you never gave an example.

                              http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/...%20website.pdf

                              I'm not justifying Hamas's actions, but neither is Israel completely blameless here. The status of Gaza is still in dispute, it is not sovereign, and Israel still has some legal responsibility for it.
                              Herodotus, the status of Gaza may be in dispute by the international community, but I fail to see how the 2005 Israeli withdrawal can be seen as anything but ceding sovereignty to the Palestinians. With regards to the West Bank, I'd agree with your assertion.

                              If you link the status of Gaza with that of the West Bank, one could argue that the Palestinian territories, as a whole, do not possess sovereignty. But I think the fact of the matter is that since the 2007 Hamas takeover the Gaza Strip has emerged as a de facto sovereign state, in a state of belligerency with both Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

                              The PDF document you've cited is two years old, to the month, and predates the Hamas takeover. I think there are a number of inaccuracies due to things that had changed in the last two years.

                              I'd like to hear your argument regarding the sovereignty of Gaza.
                              "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                                But it makes Israel a client state of America. I'm willing to bet you can already make that argument but I don't think the Israelis would see it that way. Yes they take everything they can get, but I doubt they'd be willing to cede their own defence to America's whim. If for instance Obama's Democrat successor likes Israel less than Obama does and withdraws US support, Israel will still have lost the Golan heights but now not have America's support as compensation.
                                Agreed Pari, Articles out there show Israel approached the US about bombing Irans nuclear facilities not long ago (1-2 month) and the US denied them access to Iraqi airspace in order to keep the peace. Two sided street more then others tend to or want to realize.
                                Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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