Proportionality of response

[Dreadnought]

You cannot deal with people whose sole purpose in life is the destruction of another country. Hamas should be beaten/eradicated so badly they will leave the Gaza strip and return to their masters in Iran with a very strong message.
With Sadir marginilized and having to retreat to Iran (where he preaches nothing but hatred mind you) the next should be sending Hamas back home with their balls in a sling sending them the clearest message possibe.

Iran, IMO is under the idea she will have escaped unscathed in this action. Needless to mention I strongly doubt Israel is taking its eyes off of the real menace in the background and with crude prices plunging again just how long do you believe Achmadinajad will remain in power if Israel decided to strike and bring Iran out of hiding behind Hamas and into the open. In other words circumventing the airspace needed to attack Iran that the US controls in Iraq. It will be interesting no doubt before all is said and done.

[Oscar]

Let me take potshots at your house every day with a 22 rifle. Most of the bullets will just pass through. No harm done. What are you gonna do? Take potshots at my house? Or call the police, have the SWAT move in, kick down my door, but a boot on my neck, haul my ass to jail, take away all my toys, put me on trial for attempted murder, and hopefully lock me away for life?

That doesn't seem like a proportional response, does it?

Yeah but I didn't tell the police that I had locked you in a cave for an agonizing period of time and beat you daily. About the Palestinians, Israel is on the good side only if you have short memories.


Shek,

Whether you think it's a false debate or not, you avoided the question. What is an appropriate response? How can you target rocketeers? You've narrowed the options considerably, and so I'd like to know what's acceptable from your point of view.

Israel has never looked for a proportionate response in 2006 or 2008 or any other time. The proportionate response would have been to retaliate like they did before and continue to negociate with them.

Also, Israel has had negotiations with Hamas - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985012.html -

Also, Israel has tried from the first day to eliminate the HAMAS governement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/in...gewanted=print

apparently rocket attacks didn't stop.

Yes they did.

[gunnut]

Yeah but I didn't tell the police that I had locked you in a cave for an agonizing period of time and beat you daily. About the Palestinians, Israel is on the good side only if you have short memories.

And of course you locked me in a cave only because I beat up your wife and tried to burn down your house after you built it next to mine.

[Oscar]

And of course you locked me in a cave only because I beat up your wife and tried to burn down your house after you built it next to mine.

Fair enough. But thats a chicken and egg question.

[gunnut]

Fair enough. But thats a chicken and egg question.

And we can go back a few thousand years, before Palestine, the Palestinians, even Islam had existed.

But the most recent tiff was due to Hamas's unwillingness to re-up the cease fire agreement and lobbing rockets over the border.

One observer said Hamas was emboldened by the incoming Obama administration's more sympathetic views toward Palestine.

Israel also noticed Obama's views so it decided to do something during Bush's lame duck period. Bush is effectively on vacation. He's not saying anything. Obama is not saying anything because he's not the president yet. Golden opportunity for Israel to put the smack down on Hamas and also gauge Obama's reaction.

[Shek]

Shek,

Israel has never looked for a proportionate response in 2006 or 2008 or any other time. The proportionate response would have been to retaliate like they did before and continue to negociate with them.

You've never defined your definition of proportionality re: the rocket attacks, therefore creating a circular argument.

Also, Israel has tried from the first day to eliminate the HAMAS governement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/in...gewanted=print

I don't doubt that this is a goal. I suspect that Fatah would have a much greater chance of co-existence, which would be better for both Israelis and Palestinians. However, whether or not Israel pursued any such policy is still irrelevant to the question as to what you would consider to be a proportionate response to rocket attacks.

Yes they did.

I'm happy to see stats that counter this since it comes from the IDF, but I doubt that Israel is pumping up stats and making things up here. From these stats, the rocket attacks did anything but stop.

http://idfspokesperson.com/2009/01/03/rocket-statistics-3-jan-2009/

Today, over 950,000 Israelis live within range of rocket and mortar attacks.
There have been approximately 7,200 rockets (Grads, Qassams) and mortars launched at Israel since 2005.

During 2008, there have been 1755 mortars shells, 1720 Qassams rockets, and 75 Grad missiles launched at Israel.

Since Hamas’ election there has been a steady increase of these rocket attacks against Israel’s citizens:

Between Israel’s evacuation of Gaza and the election of Hamas (Aug. 15, 2005 – Jan. 25, 2006), there was an average of over 15 rocket and mortar attacks a month.

Between Hamas’ election and Hamas’ forceful takeover of the Strip (Jan. 25, 2006 – June 14, 2007), there was an average of over 102 attacks per month—an over 650% increase.

Between Hamas’ takeover and the start of the Tahadiya (State of Calm), (June 14, 2007 – June 16, 2008), there was an average of over 361 attacks per month—an increase of an additional 350%.

On Nov. 4 – 5, Israel launched Operation “Double Challenge”, targeting a tunnel Hamas was building as part of a plan to kidnap Israeli soldiers.
From the end of Operation “Double Challenge” until the end of the Tahadiya, (Nov. 4 - Dec. 19, 2008) a period of only a month and a half, there were 170 mortars, 255 Qassams, and 5 Grads fired upon Israel’s civilian population centers.

Since the end of the Tahadiya (Dec. 19, 2009) until the beginning of Operation “Cast Lead,” (Dec. 27, 2008) a period of little more than a week, there were approximately 300 mortars and rockets fired onto Israel.
Since the begining of Operation ”Cast Lead”, there have been an additional 500 launches, 284 of which have been verified as rockets (both Qassams and Grads), and 113 as mortars.

[Oscar]

I'm happy to see stats that counter this since it comes from the IDF, but I doubt that Israel is pumping up stats and making things up here. From these stats, the rocket attacks did anything but stop.

During the truce they stopped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYhGYZxl-f8

[Oscar]

You've never defined your definition of proportionality re: the rocket attacks, therefore creating a circular argument.

You really want a definition of proportionality? Well it would be a shell for a shell. With as many losses inflicted to the population of Gaza than the one in Sderot. After all its the land of an eye for an eye. That would sound fair, wouldn't it?

[astralis]

oscar,

During the truce they stopped.

during the truce, rocket fire was reduced, not stopped.

[Shek]

During the truce they stopped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYhGYZxl-f8

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/wo...20mideast.html

Israeli and United Nations figures show that while more than 300 rockets were fired into Israel in May, 10 to 20 were fired in July, depending on who was counting and whether mortar rounds were included. In August, 10 to 30 were fired, and in September, 5 to 10.

[Shek]

You really want a definition of proportionality? Well it would be a shell for a shell. With as many losses inflicted to the population of Gaza than the one in Sderot. After all its the land of an eye for an eye. That would sound fair, wouldn't it?

So which is it? A shell for a shell or a loss for a loss? A tank shell for a Qassam sounds like an exactly proportionate caliber response, but you poo poo'd this earlier as being unproportionate.

International law is pretty clear that proportionate losses is not the case.

[Dreadnought]

You really want a definition of proportionality? Well it would be a shell for a shell. With as many losses inflicted to the population of Gaza than the one in Sderot. After all its the land of an eye for an eye. That would sound fair, wouldn't it?

Is terrorism fair?
Politics and War dont go hand and hand Politics ****s everything up because the world expects political correctness from the victor but dick from the terrorists no matter what they do. Full speed ahead Israel!


Political Correctness and Proportionality of response are a pussies way of saying yes we what this but you have to do it this way ergo a bull in a china shop wearing high heels and a blindfold and being turned around ten times until its dizzy and being told it cant touch anything and find you own way out.
Yeah that solve problems.