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Fate of the F-22 in Obama’s Hands

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  • Fate of the F-22 in Obama’s Hands

    Sometime during his first couple of months in office, President-elect Barack Obama will have to confront one of his first big decisions about U.S. defense policy and budgets. Obama will have to determine whether to continue spending roughly $4 billion a year to buy F-22 fighter jets.

    He may decide, as the Bush administration has, that the F-22 is superfluous and that the money is needed for other priorities. However the Air Force, according to defense analysts and consultants, wants to buy at least 60 more of the $180 million jets.

    The F-22, launched in the early 1980s to counter Soviet air forces in Europe, has been targeted by the Pentagon civilian management team as an airplane that is likely to be of little use in the kinds of irregular wars the U.S. is fighting or is likely to face.

    The Air Force and its backers say the F-22 could be necessary to deal with regional threats posed by countries buying advanced Russian and Chinese fighter jets. Lockheed Chief Executive Robert Stevens told the same conference that the F-22's stealth capabilities make it an excellent deterrent.

    And F-22 supporters are trotting out the jobs argument, saying the Obama administration surely will not want to put thousands more aerospace industry employees out of work in the midst of a deep recession.


    Defense Secretary Robert Gates has been in open conflict with the Air Force over the F-22 and fired the former Air Force secretary and chief of staff for, among other things, their open advocacy of the program in defiance of administration policy.

    Obama is retaining Gates, but F-22 supporters believe that they have a better chance of preserving the program once Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England leaves.

    England, the former head of General Dynamics and Lockheed's Fort Worth plant, has said repeatedly that the Air Force does not need more F-22s and has worked to accelerate purchases of the F-35 joint strike fighter.

    In a recent interview with the Star-Telegram, England said the Pentagon's limited funds for aircraft need to be spent on speeding F-35 development and production.

    Why buy more F-22's when most likely the one's already purchased will never see action?

    What do you think will happen:
    Will he restart the production lines?
    Or
    Will he not commit to any more F-22's?

    What do you think would be appropritate for US National Security, could the money be spent better elseware, like supporting troops in iraq and afganistan?

    Please cast your intelligent oppinion:)

    Richard
    79
    Yes
    62.03%
    49
    No
    37.97%
    30

  • #2
    Originally posted by R Thomas View Post

    Why buy more F-22's when most likely the one's already purchased will never see action.
    That`s just wishfull thinking...:)

    Comment


    • #3
      Why buy more F-22's when most likely the one's already purchased will never see action?
      Here are a few countries that I have a feeling would have a few conflicts with the US, which the F-22 would be of use (rank from most plausible to least plausible):

      1. Iran
      2. Sudan
      3. N. Korea
      4. China

      Only my opinions though.

      Anyhow, even without any major conflicts, the F-22 would be a great deterrent for future conflicts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
        Here are a few countries that I have a feeling would have a few conflicts with the US, which the F-22 would be of use (rank from most plausible to least plausible):

        1. Iran
        2. Sudan
        3. N. Korea
        4. China
        I dont see how first 3 countries can create problems for US air superiority in case of war. So, is F-22 really so necessary?
        Winter is coming.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
          Anyhow, even without any major conflicts, the F-22 would be a great deterrent for future conflicts.
          The 122 F-22 already built act as a great deterent.

          The number planned to be constructed was orginaly 750 aircraft this number then fell to 648, it has been falling ever since. The current contract brings the number of F-22s on order to 183(Including the 122 already in service)

          The Su-47, a comparable aircraft which is off the same generation has only had 1 plane constructed and is still experimental, However China, South Korea and India all have planes in the works
          Last edited by R Thomas; 01 Jan 09,, 12:50. Reason: Spelling

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          • #6
            Originally posted by R Thomas View Post
            The 122 F-22 already built act as a great deterent.

            The number planned to be constructed was orginaly 750 aircraft this number then fell to 648, it has been falling ever since. The current contract brings the number of F-22s on order to 183(Including the 122 already in service)

            The Su-47, a comparable aircraft which is off the same generation has only had 1 plane constructed and is still experimental, However China, South Korea and India all have planes in the works
            Keep in mind 2 "rival" countries are developing 5th generation jets, that have no problem in selling them to countries like Sudan or Zimbabwe.

            Russia and their PAK-FA may not rival the F-22, but knowing Russia, it will be mass produced in numbers that 182 F-22s may not handle. Will we have to depend on the F-35s for air supremacy as well?

            Chinese J-XX/XX-J project, once again may not rival that of the F-22, and same story, in mass numbers, can less than 200 F-22s really take on the full force?

            And think about what if these are sold to countries that REALLY despises the US...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Belisarius View Post

              Russia and their PAK-FA may not rival the F-22, but knowing Russia, it will be mass produced in numbers that 182 F-22s may not handle. Will we have to depend on the F-35s for air supremacy as well?
              MIG-21- 10,158
              MIG-23/27- 5,047
              MIG-25- 1,190
              MIG-29- 1,257
              MIG-31 500

              MY guess is that it would not exceed 500 aircrafts and Russia would keep at least half of them and split the rest between buyers.

              Comment


              • #8
                I wouldnt be too worried about the PAk-FA. Russia cant produce it in enough numbers to really hurt the F22. India is a quasi-ally so i wouldnt be to fussed about them getting funny either. The one and only possibility i can see is if China loses the plot and goes offensive and starts mass producing J10, J11 and JXX fighters like they where J7s.

                In every other circumstance the F-22 is overkill. The F35 could comfortably take down any other WARPAC (for lack of better word) fighter currently used or in production.
                The best part of repentance is the sin

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                • #9
                  f22/35

                  i found where the f/35 broke sound b,mach 1.3 a couple days ago effortlously, pilotcouldnt believe the tremendous acceleration and manuverability from a f/16 pilot.i think it will suprise a few when they finally open it up. top speed of mach 1.7 ,their even talking about it supercruising.i can see 12 f22 and 12 f35 flying together,lethal comination.6 finished, 12 more under construction,delivries starting in 2010 on new weight optimized f35.
                  Last edited by biteasaur; 01 Jan 09,, 15:53.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by biteasaur View Post
                    i found where the f/35 broke sound b,mach 1.3 a couple days ago effortlously, pilotcouldnt believe the tremendous acceleration and manuverability from a f/16 pilot.i think it will suprise a few when they finally open it up. top speed of mach 1.7 ,their even talking about it supercruising.i can see 12 f22 and 12 f35 flying together,lethal comination.6 finished, 12 more under construction,delivries starting in 2010 on new weight optimized f35.
                    wait... F-35 can go supercruise? really?
                    Oh, how is the F-35's maneuverability compared to the EF, Su-35, and Raptor?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      hold on there

                      i meant to say they"re not saying it will or wont we"ll see,lots of speculation but the 2-3 pilots ive seen on f-16.com talking says its more manuverable than the f-16,way more thrust,i bet it will be a fine aircraft.and doesnt the f-16 almost supercruise,its close.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Almost, yeah.

                        The F-35 is already planned to be an integral part of maintaining air dominance. The F-16 is integral to maintaining air supremacy already. F-16s sit on alert for homeland defense. They carry air-to-air ordnance on combat sorties, and are used as escorts or self-defense fighter-bombers in strike packages. There's not a hard and fast wall separating air-to-air and air-to-ground--F-15Cs over here, F-16s/15Es over there. There's a reason Vipers and Strike Eagles practice air-to-air. The F-35 is likely to continue that. Maybe moreso, just because of the small number of F-22s, but the concept has been there from day 1.

                        I've already stated that I have very low expectations for the military's attempt to modernize over the next few years. I think the guys on the ground will get a few new toys, mostly for PR purposes, but the significant projects intended to regain the kind of technological edge we held for decades will be killed due to budget cuts.
                        Last edited by Jimmy; 01 Jan 09,, 19:57.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by R Thomas View Post
                          Why buy more F-22's when most likely the one's already purchased will never see action?
                          And you're arriving at this conclusion how?

                          Originally posted by bugs View Post
                          MIG-21- 10,158
                          MIG-23/27- 5,047
                          MIG-25- 1,190
                          MIG-29- 1,257
                          MIG-31 500

                          MY guess is that it would not exceed 500 aircrafts and Russia would keep at least half of them and split the rest between buyers.
                          Those are nice production figures for the MiG OKB, but what about Sukhoi?
                          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Belisarius View Post

                            Chinese J-XX/XX-J project, once again may not rival that of the F-22, and same story, in mass numbers, can less than 200 F-22s really take on the full force?

                            And think about what if these are sold to countries that REALLY despises the US...
                            China may sell it, but if it is for any other country get it. Why cant the US pay some country to get it and study it. I know it wont be the real plane that china has, but US would know what are the planes almost close stats.

                            For Russia its likely they will sell it, but it would be likely be the MiG one.(I read somewhere that MiG is making a light 5thg plane) I dont really think India would let any other country get hold of the PAKFA because the FGFA(I think i am wrong for what they call it) is pretty close to it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Other than retaining Gates, Obama has not named anyone to fill key Defense Department posts, most notably England’s successor. Obama has been advised on defense policy by officials from the Clinton administration, including former Air Force Secretary F. Whitten Peters, who some say may be an F-22 advocate.

                              http://www.star-telegram.com/busines...y/1114523.html

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