Fate of the F-22 in Obama’s Hands

[Ironduke]

Senators urge Obama to buy F-22s

Senators are pressing President-elect Obama to allow the Air Force to continue buying F-22 Raptor fighter jets.

Deciding whether to buy more F-22s after the final aircraft on order is delivered at the end of 2011 is one of the first strategic and business decisions Obama’s Pentagon leaders will have to make after Inauguration.

A group of 44 senators — 25 Democrats and 19 Republicans — sent Obama a letter with the request. Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.), a defense authorizer who represents a state where Lockheed Martin builds the fighter plane, and Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.), a defense appropriator whose state is home to Boeing’s operations, headlined the letter. Boeing is a subcontractor for the F-22.

“Continued F-22 production is critical to both the national security and economic interests of our country,” Murray said in a statement. “At a time when we are looking to create jobs and stimulate the economy, eliminating the $12 billion in economic activity and thousands of American jobs tied to F-22 production simply doesn’t make sense.”

The 2009 defense authorization bill requires Obama to decide by March 1 whether to continue the production of the F-22.

That production is slated to end after 2011, when Lockheed Martin is scheduled to deliver the last of 183 aircraft. The Air Force told Congress earlier this year that it would need up to 250 F-22s to maintain air superiority. But in its 2009 budget request the Pentagon did not include money to keep producing the F-22, or to shut down the production line at Lockheed’s plant.

The Pentagon and Congress have been at odds over how many more F-22s the Air Force should buy. Senior lawmakers from both parties want the Pentagon to buy more F-22s, but the Pentagon is resisting.

The latest letter sent to Obama on Friday was signed by a broad group that included Sens. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.), John Kerry (D-Mass.), John Thune (R-S.D.) and Susan Collins (R-Maine).

In the House, Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-Ga.) is also spearheading a letter to Obama. So far, 170 lawmakers signed on and the letter is still circulating for more signatures.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates has opposed buying more F-22s and favors buying the multinational, multiservice Joint Strike Fighter, an aircraft in development that is expected to be cheaper than the F-22.

But when he released the Pentagon’s request for an emergency supplemental spending measure to cover the remainder of the year, four F-22s were included.

Bill Lynn, the designee to become the deputy secretary of Defense, said at his confirmation hearing on Wednesday that part of an early strategic review includes the Pentagon deciding on the right mix of F-22s and the Joint Strike Fighter.

“The F-22 Raptor is the nation’s most capable fighter and the world’s only operational fifth-generation fighter aircraft in full-rate production,” the senators said in their letter to Obama. “The F-22 is a model production line and, since full-rate production began, the unit flyaway cost has decreased 35 percent.”

The lawmakers stressed that more than 25,000 people work for more than 1,000 suppliers in 44 states and estimated that another 70,000 people indirectly owe their jobs to this program.

“As we face one of the most trying economic times in recent history it is critical to preserve existing high-paying, specialized jobs that are critical to our nation’s defense,” they said.

Source: http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...009-01-16.html

[dfg209]

Will there bee any money left to buy/maintain F22's?
He's certainly putting a lot into the economy via "Survival packages".

[Jimmy]

There hasnt been any money for years. Its all imaginary anyway.

[BWFalcon]

Got this email today:

The status of the United States Air Force as the premier force in the world may be at risk. Currently, America's F-22 Raptor is the only operational fifth generation fighter that can cobat threats from China, Russia and Iran; but its continued production -- and America's global air dominance -- is in serious jeopardy.

Within just a few weeks of taking office, the new president must decide whether to continue the production F-22. It is crucial that he hear from all Americans about the need to continue this highly successful program in order to strengthen both our national defense and our domestic economy. You can assist with this effort by visiting www.preserveraptorjobs.com today and signing the petition urging President Obama to save the F-22 Raptor program.

The F-22 is a key component of our National Military Strategy. Its unparalleled combination of stealth, supercruise, maneuverability, and other advanced capabilities enables it to carry out missions with great speed over large distances without being detected by the enemy. It is an exponential improvement on the aging F-15 fleet it is replacing.

No new funding is needed for this project--the President merely has to approve what Congress has already allocated. If he thinks it's wise to spend billions bailing out the auto industry, he should be able to see the wisdom in continuing to fund a stable program that is so vital to our nation's defense and to tens of thousands of American jobs.

Please visit www.preserveraptorjobs.com right now. Our men and women in uniform deserve the best fighting aircraft available. In an increasingly unstable world, our nation cannot afford any less.

[astralis]

funny how there's all this talk by senators and representatives about the national security aspects of this when both SECDEF and chairman of JCS don't think it's necessary.

[BWFalcon]

funny how there's all this talk by senators and representatives about the national security aspects of this when both SECDEF and chairman of JCS don't think it's necessary.

You just have to read the 2nd line of the website:

American Jobs, National Security, and Billions of Dollars at Stake

[Jimmy]

funny how there's all this talk by senators and representatives about the national security aspects of this when both SECDEF and chairman of JCS don't think it's necessary.

How curious that a Navy admiral doesn't want the AF to get money that would otherwise be spent on the other services, including the Navy. And Gates has his eyes solely on OIF/OEF. Everyone involved with AF fighters knows how important the F-22 is for the future.

[LetsTalk]

Support For More F-22s Soars in Congress

Even before President-elect Barack Obama to takes office Jan. 20, U.S. lawmakers are making a push in letters addressed to him to secure the future of the stealthy F-22 production line in Marietta, Ga.

Sens. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) and Patty Murray (D-WA) sent a letter to Obama Jan. 16 requesting funding for production for the twin-engine fighter. Citing a flyaway cost reduction of 35 percent, the senators also say the end of the fighter’s production could further drain the U.S. economy in the midst of a recession. A decision is needed by early March to avoid gaps in the production line.

Flyaway cost is now estimated at about $153 million. Lockheed Martin has seen approval to produce 187 fighters, but the Air Force continues to say it will require more of the aircraft to handle future threats such as the SA-20 and S-300/400 advanced air defense systems thought to be proliferating among potential adversaries.

A similar letter is being circulated among House members and is said to have at least 150 signatures. Though departing Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England has been cool on the idea of continued F-22 production, Defense Secretary Robert Gates - who is staying on under Obama - has signaled interest in at least considering additional buys.

The senators, in their letter, claim the F-22 “provides over $12 billion of economic activity to the national economy.” Layoffs are likely if the production line doesn’t receive additional funding. The F-22 program is estimated to cost $64.5 billion, including the research and production phases.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...0in%20Congress

[classical1939]

with the present economic scenario more F 22 are out of the questtion... also does the us really need a state of the art air superiority fighter???
wat i mean is that the cold war is over... the countries that pose a threat to US security do not even have a decent airforce... wat's the point in producing more f 22 's?
it does not even have a decent strike capability...

[Jimmy]

with the present economic scenario more F 22 are out of the questtion... also does the us really need a state of the art air superiority fighter???
wat i mean is that the cold war is over... the countries that pose a threat to US security do not even have a decent airforce... wat's the point in producing more f 22 's?
it does not even have a decent strike capability...

Without getting into politics (ie who is a threat, why, etc) this isnt entirely true. Even if it was, you should've said "YET" because some potential future adversaries are arming themselves. You dont win wars by reacting, you win by preparing early. Peace through superior firepower.

[classical1939]

Without getting into politics (ie who is a threat, why, etc) this isnt entirely true. Even if it was, you should've said "YET" because some potential future adversaries are arming themselves. You dont win wars by reacting, you win by preparing early. Peace through superior firepower.

sure thats y the US is developing the techs... 126(?) F 22 are already in service.. more than enough to figure out fifth generation doctrines and proceed foorward. i dint say the us does not need to keep ahead in terms of technology.. i merely said as of now inducting more f 22s makes no sense..

[Jimmy]

It makes perfect sense. If they stop building it, they will NEVER be able to start again. The equipment isnt just going to sit there for 10-15 years until we need it again. Its literally a "now or never" situation. 180 isnt enough...everyone admits that. The AF has a schedule of training, deployment, and reconstitution, and 180 planes is physically not enough squadrons to cover the schedule. Its not even a matter of "We'd like more to have a better capability" its literally "There are times when we will not have any F-22s available to defend the United States."

[ANZAC]

It makes perfect sense. If they stop building it, they will NEVER be able to start again. The equipment isnt just going to sit there for 10-15 years until we need it again. Its literally a "now or never" situation. 180 isnt enough...everyone admits that. The AF has a schedule of training, deployment, and reconstitution, and 180 planes is physically not enough squadrons to cover the schedule. Its not even a matter of "We'd like more to have a better capability" its literally "There are times when we will not have any F-22s available to defend the United States."

That's why I think the F-22 will probably, [sooner rather then later] be open to purchase by 'favoured' nations like Israel, Japan, Australia etc.

The key word these days is saving jobs, and local reps where the F-22 are built, are going to be putting a fair amount of pressure on the powers that be to allow overseas sales, even in a "watered-down" export variant, as well as further buys for the US air force.

As Wiki says the programme has already cost well over $28 billion in the Raptor's research, development and testing. The Unit Procurement Cost was estimated at $177.6 million in 2006 based on a production run of 181 airframes.

This unit cost will decrease if total production is higher.

The incremental cost for one additional F-22 is around $138 million; decreasing with larger volumes. If the Air Force were to buy 100 more F-22s today, the cost of each one would be less and would continue to drop with additional aircraft purchases, which means it's more affordable to buy.

Israeli Air Force's chief procurement officer, said a while back,while back that, "The IAF would be happy to equip itself with F-22s, but the problem at this time is the US refusal to sell the aircraft, and its $200 million price tag."

Well at least the price tag is coming down, now I guess it's up to the U.S. to start selling it, making money, and keeping the line open.

In 2006, the Australian Labor Party supported the F-22 on the grounds that the F-22 is a proven, highly capable aircraft, while the F-35 is still under development. However, the Howard government ruled out purchase of the F-22, on the grounds that it is unlikely to be released for export and made up it's mind that it was F-35 or nothing, even without properly evaluating any other fighters like the Typhoon or Rafale.

The Labour party would probably still stand by it's preference for the F-22, but the way it is at the moment it looks like they're getting boxed in with the F-35, [with prices being quoted at around $80 million a copy, and rising fast]

[Zinja]

That's why I think the F-22 will probably, [sooner rather then later] be open to purchase by 'favoured' nations like Israel, Japan, Australia etc.

The key word these days is saving jobs, and local reps where the F-22 are built, are going to be putting a fair amount of pressure on the powers that be to allow overseas sales, even in a "watered-down" export variant, as well as further buys for the US air force.

As Wiki says the programme has already cost well over $28 billion in the Raptor's research, development and testing. The Unit Procurement Cost was estimated at $177.6 million in 2006 based on a production run of 181 airframes.

This unit cost will decrease if total production is higher.

The incremental cost for one additional F-22 is around $138 million; decreasing with larger volumes. If the Air Force were to buy 100 more F-22s today, the cost of each one would be less and would continue to drop with additional aircraft purchases, which means it's more affordable to buy.

Israeli Air Force's chief procurement officer, said a while back,while back that, "The IAF would be happy to equip itself with F-22s, but the problem at this time is the US refusal to sell the aircraft, and its $200 million price tag."

Well at least the price tag is coming down, now I guess it's up to the U.S. to start selling it, making money, and keeping the line open.

In 2006, the Australian Labor Party supported the F-22 on the grounds that the F-22 is a proven, highly capable aircraft, while the F-35 is still under development. However, the Howard government ruled out purchase of the F-22, on the grounds that it is unlikely to be released for export and made up it's mind that it was F-35 or nothing, even without properly evaluating any other fighters like the Typhoon or Rafale.

The Labour party would probably still stand by it's preference for the F-22, but the way it is at the moment it looks like they're getting boxed in with the F-35, [with prices being quoted at around $80 million a copy, and rising fast]

Some sources are saying the pentagon is leaning towards getting 60 more raptors at 20/yr for the next three years, thereafter then open it for export in 2014. Maybe the reasoning is that there will be some kind of improved raptor on the cards thereafter, just guessing. Another reasoning is that the F-35 will be ramping up its production by 2014 and will absorb the labour lost in the ceasation of the F-22.

[Jimmy]

That's why I think the F-22 will probably, [sooner rather then later] be open to purchase by 'favoured' nations like Israel, Japan, Australia etc.

The key word these days is saving jobs, and local reps where the F-22 are built, are going to be putting a fair amount of pressure on the powers that be to allow overseas sales, even in a "watered-down" export variant, as well as further buys for the US air force.

This has already been covered ad nauseum in other threads. Favored nations: Japan, Israel, Australia, UK, Canada.

Japan won't be able to keep its secrets well enough.
Israel can't be trusted.
Australia doesn't want it.
UK doesn't want it.
Canada doesn't want it.

There's no chance of watering it down. This isnt an F-15, a standard airframe with plug-and-play awesome goodies. The very DESIGN of this aircraft is a tremendous secret. The radar is fundamental to its employment...secret. The engines/inlet design...secret. Exterior coatings...secret. There's nothing to water down.

Maybe in 7-10 years things will change. If China decides to be aggressive that might advance any export timetable that exists, but barring that I have a real hard time believing this aircraft will ever be exported, unless the US sells off the obsolete F-22 when the next generation is out. The USAF won't be able to buy them over a long enough period of time to keep the line open until its safe to export.