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Thread: Palestinian complicity in the Holocaust?

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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Palestinian complicity in the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally Posted by xunil View Post
    I still don't think Israelis have any justice to build a country in Palestine. What Nazis did to Jew was cruel, and the whole world feel sympathy about Jew in WWII. If they want to build a new country to protect its people, it should be in Europe.
    No xunil. The Middle East is not the private property of the Arabs, other peoples such as the Jews or the Kurds also have the right to political independence. Jews were a clear majority in the areas assigned to Israel by the UN. Jerusalem has had a provable Jewish majority since the first Ottoman census in the 1830s.

    So where is the injustice then?

    BTW, so called ¨Palestinians¨ were allies to Hitler and complicit to the Holocaust. Their leader Amin Al-Husseini organized a Muslim SS division and was directly responsible for the murder of hundreds, in not thousands of Jewish children and many more adults. Just because they were Jews.

    Take a look at this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

    Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, "the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem.
    To this day this scumbag is refered to as a hero in their History textbooks. If these guys have earned a right to nationhood, then, I´m the Bishop of Rome.

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    Palestinian complicity in the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    BTW, so called ¨Palestinians¨ were allies to Hitler and complicit to the Holocaust. Their leader Amin Al-Husseini organized a Muslim SS division and was directly responsible for the murder of hundreds, in not thousands of Jewish children and many more adults. Just because they were Jews.
    No, there wasn't "a Muslim SS Division." I guess that you are referring here to 13. SS Gebirgs Division "Handschar," which was a Croation unit. Yes, it had Muslims, and Roman Catholics as well, and many Croations of no religious affiliation. And yes, they killed Jews, although their primary targets were Orthodox Christians and Bosnians who were fighting against the Germans. They also killed Gypsies. The unit was well-regarded for their anti-Partisan successes, which of course included murdering civilians, but became something of a liability when it was later used in the line. The Germans did not regard Muslims or Arabs as very good material from which to fashion soldiers in the Western sense, due to their historic culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    But I do perceive an anti-Israeli bias in your comment when you hint that this crisis is manufactured and that Israel will try to maximize Palestinian deaths and will only stop when they feel US aid is at risk. In other words, their blood lust being only tempered by their greed.
    I'm sorry that you found my words ambiguous. I wasn't "hinting" that I think this crisis is manufactured. I thought I was stating it fairly explicitly. But you did misunderstand my point about the aid. I don't think that Israel is operating under some sort of blood lust here, I think that they are, rather, manufacturing new enemies at the start of a new American administration, so that they can claim continuing US support during the next phase of retaliation. To put it more clearly: Israel knows that they can only successfully draw on US money as long as they are perceived as being at risk. This requires them to have active enemies. Therefore, it is in Israel's best self-interest to see to it that those enemies exist. I admire their tenacity and maintenance of aim in achieving their national goals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    Did you know that Hamas fires rockets over Sderot preferably at the times the children are going to or coming from school?

    I suggest we leave the US aid thing aside and discuss it in other threads, like the Israel asset or liability one. I´m not prepared to debate it yet, but your figures do seem very high. It is a difficult issue to research. One of the reasons is that Jimmy Carter put Israel aid under control of the State Department instead of the Pentagon, thus making it a political issue.

    This is what bothers me.

    I think that Israel is a first world country and they might well be getting too much. But if the US cut all its aid I suspect not a single person in the US would change his or her views over Israel. At the same time, the US is sending lots of aid to Egypt, Jordan or the ¨Palestinians¨, the same guys that were handing out sweets and dancing in the streets when the twin towers came down. So how come it is not that aid that is being questioned?
    Let me make one thing very clear: I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't care who shoots rockets at who, or who blows up which school, any of that. War and conflict is the human condition. Israel certainly has the right to fight for existence. So do the Palestinians. For that matter, if the Basques want their own country and want to fight for it, that's fine. If the Parti Québécois or the Micmac or Pequot tribes want their own countries and decide to start fighting, that is still fine with me. I really don't care. I just don't enjoy being taxed to pay for other peoples' fun.

    Why am I criticizing welfare payments to Israel and not other countries? This is a thread about Israel. I don't want payments to go to Egypt or the Palestinians, either, or Pakistan, France, Argentina, Burkina Faso, etc. Jordan is doing some good military work for the money they receive, and that is more an employee relationship than foreign aid, as such. I don't think we should be fighting that war, but as long as its happening, Jordan is earning their keep.

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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteForge View Post
    No, there wasn't "a Muslim SS Division." I guess that you are referring here to 13. SS Gebirgs Division "Handschar," which was a Croation unit. Yes, it had Muslims, and Roman Catholics as well, and many Croations of no religious affiliation. And yes, they killed Jews, although their primary targets were Orthodox Christians and Bosnians who were fighting against the Germans. They also killed Gypsies. The unit was well-regarded for their anti-Partisan successes, which of course included murdering civilians, but became something of a liability when it was later used in the line. The Germans did not regard Muslims or Arabs as very good material from which to fashion soldiers in the Western sense, due to their historic culture.
    Al-Husseini was involved in the mobilization of support for Germany among Muslims and he recruited around 20000 of them for the SS. The 13. SS Gebirgs Division was a Muslim oriented division and apparently had a Muslim Imam for each battalion and a Mullah for each regiment, even if not all members were Muslims. But the point of my comment was to remind xunil that so called Palestinians were involved in WWII and the Holocaust. (Some Muslims, Berber and Arab alike in North Africa helped their Jewish brothers and sisters to escape from the nazi onslaught though, and that should also be mentioned and those people praised for it)

    I didn´t express myself well, I wasn´t trying to link the Muslim volunteers with the Holocaust (although I´m pretty sure some of them were), but specifically al-Husseini (¨Palestinian¨ leader at the time, and Arafat´s hero in his own words) who for example personally intervened to prevent Hungarian Jewish children being saved and were subsequently sent to Auschwitz instead.

    I'm sorry that you found my words ambiguous. I wasn't "hinting" that I think this crisis is manufactured. I thought I was stating it fairly explicitly. But you did misunderstand my point about the aid. I don't think that Israel is operating under some sort of blood lust here, I think that they are, rather, manufacturing new enemies at the start of a new American administration, so that they can claim continuing US support during the next phase of retaliation. To put it more clearly: Israel knows that they can only successfully draw on US money as long as they are perceived as being at risk. This requires them to have active enemies. Therefore, it is in Israel's best self-interest to see to it that those enemies exist. I admire their tenacity and maintenance of aim in achieving their national goals.
    Manufacturing new enemies in Gaza?

    To get US aid?

    That would be truly diabolic on Israel part.

    I think you will find that Palestinians don´t need any outside help to be terminally brainwashed into ethnic and religious hate. An entire generation has been exposed to the most vicious forms of hate propaganda, and that, coupled with the fact that the average age in Gaza is around 15, is the reason a ¨peace process¨ can only be a fraudulent one. I have come to this conclusion after observing Palestinian media for some time. Have a look at things like Farfur the Mouse clips in youtube and then tell me who is manufacturing enemies and looking for a fight here.


    Let me make one thing very clear: I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't care who shoots rockets at who, or who blows up which school, any of that. War and conflict is the human condition. Israel certainly has the right to fight for existence. So do the Palestinians. For that matter, if the Basques want their own country and want to fight for it, that's fine. If the Parti Québécois or the Micmac or Pequot tribes want their own countries and decide to start fighting, that is still fine with me. I really don't care. I just don't enjoy being taxed to pay for other peoples' fun.

    Why am I criticizing welfare payments to Israel and not other countries? This is a thread about Israel. I don't want payments to go to Egypt or the Palestinians, either, or Pakistan, France, Argentina, Burkina Faso, etc. Jordan is doing some good military work for the money they receive, and that is more an employee relationship than foreign aid, as such. I don't think we should be fighting that war, but as long as its happening, Jordan is earning their keep.
    I think you, like everybody in the civilized world, have a dog in this fight whether you know it or not. Because if Israel goes down you won´t be safer as you think you would. The Israeli factor does not answer the why do they hate us question. It doesn´t.

    That is a question that exceeds this debate as far as I´m concerned, but I do hope to share my views and debate yours in the near future.
    Last edited by Castellano; 29 Dec 08, at 00:41.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano
    No xunil. The Middle East is not the private property of the Arabs, other peoples such as the Jews or the Kurds also have the right to political independence. Jews were a clear majority in the areas assigned to Israel by the UN. Jerusalem has had a provable Jewish majority since the first Ottoman census in the 1830s.
    Yes, but the Palestinians also have a right to statehood alongside the state of Israel.
    BTW, so called ¨Palestinians¨ were allies to Hitler and complicit to the Holocaust. Their leader Amin Al-Husseini organized a Muslim SS division and was directly responsible for the murder of hundreds, in not thousands of Jewish children and many more adults. Just because they were Jews.
    That's a massive stretch. Al-Husseini's collusion with the Nazis in no way reflected the views of the rest of the Palestinian political leadership, and it's irrelevant to the Israeli-Palestinian issue of today.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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    That's a massive stretch. Al-Husseini's collusion with the Nazis in no way reflected the views of the rest of the Palestinian political leadership, and it's irrelevant to the Israeli-Palestinian issue of today.
    Wait, I wasn´t implying it is relevant for the Israeli-Palestinian issue today, or not by itself. But my initial response was to a comment that repeated an often heard ¨argument¨ about the Palestinians not having anything to do with the Holocaust. They had plenty to do with it through their leadership. The Mufti Al-Husseini even planned to build a death camp with Eichman in Nablus, apparently delighted after a visit to Auschwitz.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    Wait, I wasn´t implying it is relevant for the Israeli-Palestinian issue today, or not by itself. But my initial response was to a comment that repeated an often heard ¨argument¨ about the Palestinians not having anything to do with the Holocaust. They had plenty to do with it through their leadership. The Mufti Al-Husseini even planned to build a death camp with Eichman in Nablus, apparently delighted after a visit to Auschwitz.
    I'd say that he, Al-Husseini, had plenty to do with the Holocaust, not they, the Palestinians. As I understand he was in exile, and was acting on his own.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I'd say that he, Al-Husseini, had plenty to do with the Holocaust, not they, the Palestinians. As I understand he was in exile, and was acting on his own.
    Exiled by the British, but he remained popular among its constituency. What bothers me though, is the fact that he has not been discredited as he deserves, on the contrary. No wonder Hamas feels no regrets using the language it uses when writing down its charter.

    Yes, that's correct, but it was actually a freighter loaded with arms, not a warship by any means.
    Yes, it was an ironic license )

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    Exiled by the British, but he remained popular among its constituency. What bothers me though, is the fact that he has not been discredited as he deserves, on the contrary. No wonder Hamas feels no regrets using the language it uses when writing down its charter.
    It doesn't matter if he remained popular with his constituency, the Palestinians as a people didn't play a role in the Holocaust.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    It doesn't matter if he remained popular with his constituency, the Palestinians as a people didn't play a role in the Holocaust.
    The Holocaust was a secret enterprise. Were Germans responsible for the Holocaust?

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Palestinian complicity in the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    In a letter sent by three non-American, European, Jewish physicist to Roosevelt.

    From allies, in short.
    What's your point?

    What are you trying to get at?

    Israel provided the US the atom bomb?

    That's exactly what you've been implying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    The Holocaust was a secret enterprise. Were Germans responsible for the Holocaust?
    Has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The Palestinians were not complicit in the Holocaust.
    I wasn´t the one to bring it up. But once the Holocaust is brought up, we have to discuss the role of Al-Husseini, who happened to be the leader of the Palestinians. Or did he perpetrate by himself the massacres of Jews in the Mandate in the 1920s and 30s? But even all that could and would have been forgotten if it were not for the unbroken line of genocidal designs that punctuate the recent history in the Arab world: Al-Husseini-Nasser-Arafat-Nasrallah-Hamas. They are not shy about it. Not at all.

    They, the Palestinians, still regard him as a hero, precisely for what he did.
    You can discuss the role of Al-Husseini all you want. The Palestinians were not complicit in the Holocaust. But I'll do a short interview with a Palestinian I know personally tomorrow or the day after regarding popular Palestinian views of Al-Husseini in the 1936-1948 time period and now. But again, it's something that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    What's your point?

    What are you trying to get at?
    My point is that I find some of the insinuations about US aid to Israel repellent. Some of them I said. I have read a whole tome of criticism to US-Israel relations today, and I mean a TOME, in British and Spanish press. I have decided I´m gonna take on this issue head on and expose the hypocritical repellents for what they are.

    Israel provided the US the atom bomb?
    I did not say that, but somebody did provide the US with the bomb, it didn´t get it by itself, and if you are going to call Albert Einstein a Zionist Entity, then, I´ll settle to that.

    That's exactly what you've been implying.
    I said very clearly that the US didn´t get where it is alone, and I stand by it.
    I want to continue with this, but before I make myself perfectly clear in every way, I want to know what 7thsniper implied by this question:

    I know where hamas is getting its backing but where does Isreal keep getting financing for waging this very long war?

    Strange question. Either it is very late and I´m paranoid or I detect implications of my own in that question.

    Once my question is answered, I will continue.

    Has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The Palestinians were not complicit in the Holocaust.
    I wasn´t the one to bring it up. But once the Holocaust is brought up, we have to discuss the role of Al-Husseini, who happened to be the leader of the Palestinians. Or did he perpetrate by himself the massacres of Jews in the Mandate in the 1920s and 30s? But even all that could and would have been forgotten if it were not for the unbroken line of genocidal designs that punctuate the recent history in the Arab world: Al-Husseini-Nasser-Arafat-Nasrallah-Hamas. They are not shy about it. Not at all.

    They, the Palestinians, still regard him as a hero, precisely for what he did.
    Last edited by Castellano; 30 Dec 08, at 08:19.

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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Palestinian complicity in the Holocaust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    You can discuss the role of Al-Husseini all you want. The Palestinians were not complicit in the Holocaust. But I'll do a short interview with a Palestinian I know personally tomorrow or the day after regarding popular Palestinian views of Al-Husseini in the 1936-1948 time period and now. But again, it's something that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    I said the Palestinians through their leadership were complicit with the Holocaust. As I suggested (exaggerating, but just a bit) by your own logic the Germans had nothing to do with it either. I´m not saying they hold the same degree of responsibility as the Germans but they hold some. Or just do a mental exercise and try to imagine what would have been the reaction if Al-Husseini got his way and built a death camp in Nablus. You do have the antecedents of events in the mandate to compose a picture.

    I don´t know what your friend will tell you, but Edward Said himself acknowledged that the more Al-Husseini supported Hitler the more his popularity grew. I have the source in Amsterdam, if you want I can look it up and prove it. I believe I read it in a book by Alan Dershowitz, where he has the original source.

    Why is all this relevant?

    First, because when I brought it up, it was to respond a comment that tried to undercut the legitimacy of the creation of Israel by pointing out that Palestinians had nothing to do with WW2. Well, that would be irrelevant to the creation of Israel, but actually, it is relevant for the creation of Palestinian state:

    Just from memory, Palestinians have in fact participated in WW1, WW2, The Genocidal War against Israel 48-49, The War of attrition, The terrorist campaign that followed Suez, The Genocidal War against Israel in 67, The terrorism campaign that followed, The Yom Kippur War, The terrorism campaign that followed, The First Lebanon War, The first intifada & The second intifada. They have lost every single one of these wars. At the same time, they have refused to create their own state at least twice: 1948 and 2000-1, killing the Oslo peace process with it. An in addition to all that, they didn´t challenge the annexation of the West Bank by Jordan or the Occupation of Gaza by Egypt.

    Yet you contend that Palestinians have a right for their own State.

    There was never in history an Arab Palestinian state. There is no justification for one now (other than perhaps in Jordan). The only justification I can possibly see is to encourage a pacification of the region, which is all I really care about. Arabs already rule 22 states. The creation of a 23rd Arab state, "Palestine", in the West Bank and Gaza will escalate Middle East violence and world terrorism almost certainly. The Palestinians are not and never were a "nation". They are not even a tribe. They are a branch of Arabs with only minor and secondary cultural differences that distinguish them from Syrians, Lebanese or Jordanians. You and I have covered this before. It is doubtful whether they ever did have a right for a State, but - even if they once did - they forfeited it thanks to decades of terrorism, savagery, mass murders and barbarism.

    Convince me a Palestinian state will lead to less violence, and I will use all the will and intelligence I can muster to help make it a reality.


    Second, Hamas & Hezbollah are Fascist, even Nazis.

    This is not a political metaphor but the clinical description of these two parties. And the thing to do the Fascists is to crush them before they crush you. Is the only way to go. Furthermore, their Fascism is not a new development but the result of a historical evolution, rooted in the 1930s, the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood and individuals such Al-Husseini. So here is the link you are looking for to establish the relevance of all this.

    I´m aware the world in general and the State Department in particular is filled with fools who think that Arabs cannot be Fascist. They must consider that is probably too sophisticated of an ideology for them (because there is a lot of closet racism in the multiculti crowd). I don´t know what is the reason. But what Israel is facing today in Gaza is exactly that: a Nazi party.

    Why so many people fail to see it? I dont know.

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    You obviously don't know much about the Hezbollah. They are not fascists, if the term "fascist" is to retain any meaning whatsoever.

    And the Palestinian people had very little to do with the massacres of European Jews under the Third Reich. The entire premise of your thread is absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cape_royds View Post
    You obviously don't know much about the Hezbollah. They are not fascists, if the term "fascist" is to retain any meaning whatsoever.

    And the Palestinian people had very little to do with the massacres of European Jews under the Third Reich. The entire premise of your thread is absurd.
    The purpose of all this is pretty clear - trying to smear people you disagree with by any means to hand.

    When Palestinians & were associated with left wing 'liberation' movements in the 60s, 70s & 80s and sought help from the communist world (the US had already chosen its side) this was one of the things that made them dangerous.

    During the same period people on the left with no understanding of history but a keen sense of the power of certain words took to using the word 'fascist' to describe anyone they didn't like. As the popular memory of communism fades the power of 'fascist' & 'nazi' remains. The holocaust remains the most powerful symbol of human evil in the west. Thus, if you want to smear your opponents nowadays, you call them 'fascist' & try to link them to the holocaust. Jonah Goldberg has taken this to its illogical extreme with 'Liberal Fascism'. All part of the same game.

    So, if you want to smear the Palestinian causer, a good way is to link them to the holocaust. They are fascists. They are Nazis. They are beyond civilized discourse. And within a decade Israel will be sitting down to talks with Hamas as it did with Fatah. There are ample reasons to dislike Hamas & Hezbollah (& Likud for that matter). Making stuff up says more about the person doing it than the intended target.

    Castellano, you seem quite passionate about this, so here is a suggestion. As you are probably aware, Subhas Chandra Bose was a wartime collaborator with both Hitler & Imperial Japan. He raised men to fight for both, contributing a whole army to the Japanese cause. He remains a hero to hindreds of millions of Indians & especially the powerful BJP. As we are shying away from Indian topics oin WAB at the moment I suggest you go to an Indian website & post a topic about how Indians are complicit in the holocaust AND Japapese war crimes because they still admire Chandra Bose. Post the url here so we can watch you defend your principles. SHould be fun.


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    Senior Contributor Castellano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cape_royds View Post
    You obviously don't know much about the Hezbollah. They are not fascists, if the term "fascist" is to retain any meaning whatsoever.
    Hezbollah might not be exactly like an European 1930s party, but they are fascists to the core.

    And the Palestinian people had very little to do with the massacres of European Jews under the Third Reich. The entire premise of your thread is absurd.
    Yes I think you are correct that the Palestinian people had very little to do with the Holocaust and it would be unfair to hold them responsible.

    But bear in mind that this thread was opened as a sub-debate of an existing thread, and their leadership did actively participate, there is some connection.

    The problem that I see though, is that figures like the Mufti have not been discredited.

    I have found my sources proving his popularity during the War and beyond. In 1948 he was elected as president of the National Palestinian Council even though he was a wanted war criminal.

    I'll try to transcribe what I found tomorrow, part of it is from Edward Said & Christopher Hitchens "Blaming the victims", a clearly pro-Palestinian source.

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