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  • #61
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Okay, I grant you the Rocket....hard to pull for the Habs as Bruins fan (and yes, I acknowledge the mid 1970s Habs as the greatest hockey team of all time) but how do you see Orr? I see him as a seminal player who changed the game.
    Orr was the Bruins. Him and Richard were of an era. I was only commenting on how Canadians got shystered by Gretzky, not that there were no other greats.

    Orr changed how defence was played, a pioneer. It was him who lead the way for Larry Robinson.

    What's more both Richard and Orr were something Gretzky never was - leaders.

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    • #62
      I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

      As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.

      To put that in perspective for non cricket fans, the very best batsmen in any era might average between 45-53 and score 3000-5000 runs. A literal handful have averaged over 55 in careers long enough to matter. A few dozen have scored over 7000 runs (most in the past 30 years - more games).

      Only TWO people to have scored over 4000 runs have an average of 60 or more. One has 4555 runs at 60.97, the other is Bradman. I don't know of any sportsman who has dominated a sport to the point where he was 40% better than any one else in the history of that sport.
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      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
        I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

        As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.
        Not only does it take athletic ability to play cricket, you must have a very high IQ just to keep track of the hundred or so positions,

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
          I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

          As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.

          To put that in perspective for non cricket fans, the very best batsmen in any era might average between 45-53 and score 3000-5000 runs. A literal handful have averaged over 55 in careers long enough to matter. A few dozen have scored over 7000 runs (most in the past 30 years - more games).

          Only TWO people to have scored over 4000 runs have an average of 60 or more. One has 4555 runs at 60.97, the other is Bradman. I don't know of any sportsman who has dominated a sport to the point where he was 40% better than any one else in the history of that sport.
          choke gasp, gotta agree with Bigfella here, cough cough choke
          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
            I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

            As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.

            To put that in perspective for non cricket fans, the very best batsmen in any era might average between 45-53 and score 3000-5000 runs. A literal handful have averaged over 55 in careers long enough to matter. A few dozen have scored over 7000 runs (most in the past 30 years - more games).

            Only TWO people to have scored over 4000 runs have an average of 60 or more. One has 4555 runs at 60.97, the other is Bradman. I don't know of any sportsman who has dominated a sport to the point where he was 40% better than any one else in the history of that sport.

            BF What's a cricket tragic? I am not familiar at all with cricket, so I don't know the terms. Bradman though looks like a good choice for most dominate if he was indeed 40% better than anyone else.

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            • #66
              Im also thinking Sir Don Bradman as the worlds best batter, and shane Warne as the best bowler......but I think some of our friends from India, Pakistan and England might have other ideas.....

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                choke gasp, gotta agree with Bigfella here, cough cough choke
                :)):)):)):)):)):)):))
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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Herodotus View Post
                  BF What's a cricket tragic? I am not familiar at all with cricket, so I don't know the terms. Bradman though looks like a good choice for most dominate if he was indeed 40% better than anyone else.

                  Sorry Hero, a cricket tragic is just someone who is overfond of the game.

                  Test matches between nations take 5 days, each day is at least 7 hours ( including about 1 hour of breaks) and there is no guarantee of a result. My record is attending 3 days of a game, though I would cheerfully attend all 5.

                  Bradman certainly stands out. While statistics never tell the whole truth, the gap here is huge.
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                  • #69
                    When was Cricket tabbed a sport? ;)

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by timebandit View Post
                      Im also thinking Sir Don Bradman as the worlds best batter, and shane Warne as the best bowler......but I think some of our friends from India, Pakistan and England might have other ideas.....
                      TB,

                      It is much harder to pinpoint a greatest bowler. No one stands out as clearly as Bradman & changes in playing conditions make it difficult to compare across eras.

                      Shane Warne may well be the greatest. He is certainly the greatest of his era, and is among tha all time greats. It is impossible, however, to meaningfully compare him to S.F.Barnes (ENG) or Bill O'Reilly (AUS). I would also nominate modern greats such as Fred Trueman (ENG), Malcolm Marshall (WI), Michael Holding (WI), Joel Garner (WI), Dennis Lillee (AUS), Richard Hadlee (NZ), Wasim Akram (PAK), Muthiah Muralithuran (SL) & perhaps even Glenn McGrath (AUS) as comparable in many ways. I still think Warne beats out those modern bowlers, but good cases can be put for them.

                      Another issue is all-rounders. For the uninitiated, these are players who are strong at both batting and bowling. Some were world class at one and OK at the other. Others are strong at both. Leading contenders would be:

                      W.G. Grace(ENG) - the first cricket superstar & perhaps the greatest of all - a case where statistics do not tell the truth.
                      Wilfred Rhodes (ENG) - the outstanding all-rounder during a 30 year test career (1899 - 1930), better bowler than batsman.
                      Jack Gregory (AUS) - Dominated cricket in the early 1920s.
                      Keith Miller (AUS) - Devastating bowler & dashing batsman of the 40s & 50s.
                      Sir Garfield Sobers (WI) - One of the great batsmen of all time & a fine bowler - could have been chosen for either. Could bowl fast, medium or spin AND a fine captain.
                      Ian Botham (ENG) - Could win a game with bat or ball, though a better bowler.
                      Imran Khan (PAK) - Brilliant bowler & fine batsman - also one of the few people able to captain the notoriously fractious Pakistan.
                      Kapil Dev (IND) - Over 400 test wickets. Batting was less impressive, but his 175 against Zimbabwe during the 83 World Cup remains one of the great innings of all time.

                      The winner? Either Grace or Sobers.

                      Special mentions: It might be argued that truly great sportsmen excell at more than one sports.
                      Dennis Compton was one of England's greatest batsmen, he also played football for Arsenal & was in the team that won the 1948 league cup & 1950 FA Cup. He played for England during WW2, though these don't count as official England games.
                      Keith Miller has already been mentioned among all rounders. he might have been considered with Grace & Sobers if he had taken his batting seriously - to him cricket was only a game. Miller was also an outstanding Australian Rules Footballer and was selected to play for his state, Victoria in 1946. This is the highest level to which an Aussie rules player can ascend.

                      Miller is easily my favourite cricketer of all time, as much for his attitude as his outrageous abilities. He piloted Mosquitoes during WW2 & regularly flew combat missions over Germany (on one he took an unauthorized detour over Bonn because it was the birthplace of his favourite composer - Beethoven). A crash at the conclusion of one mission left Miller with a back injury that he had to manage throughout his sporting career. Miller played in the 'victory tests' in England in 1945 - a series of test between players who had served in the war. They helped to raise the morale of a war-weary Britain. His favourite memory was not of any feat of his own but of a South Australian teammate walking onto Lord's to a thunderous ovation a few weeks after his release from a POW camp. Years later when an interviewer asked him how he dealt with the pressure of elite sport he replied "son, pressure is having a Messerschmitt up your arse." A great sportsman by any measure.
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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by timebandit View Post
                        Im also thinking Sir Don Bradman as the worlds best batter, and shane Warne as the best bowler......but I think some of our friends from India, Pakistan and England might have other ideas.....
                        No I am in full agreement, I will go with Sir Don Bradman, if he wasn't any good he wouldn't have been knighted. I also agree with W.G. Grace. But hey BIGFELLA you are a sad case aren't you Just jesting, great knowledge of the sport. Good luck in the Ashes, not that you'll need it the state English Cricket is in at the moment. :))

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Chaobam Armour View Post
                          No I am in full agreement, I will go with Sir Don Bradman, if he wasn't any good he wouldn't have been knighted. I also agree with W.G. Grace. But hey BIGFELLA you are a sad case aren't you Just jesting, great knowledge of the sport. Good luck in the Ashes, not that you'll need it the state English Cricket is in at the moment. :))
                          Happy to admit to being a sad case when it comes to the finest sport ever invented.:)

                          As for the Ashes, it could be a very good contest. We are talented but fragile - relying heavily on a very inexperienced bowling attack is never a good way to go into an Ashes series. On the other hand you guys seem determined to self destruct, though Gooch seems to think it is somehow all Shane Warne's fault - is Warnie still our trump card?:))
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                          • #73
                            Hey Bigfella: Just as Australia looks to be at it weakest in a quarter of a century, England has taken careful aim and shot itself in both feet.

                            England captain Kevin Pietersen has quit in the wake of his rift with coach Peter Moores, who has been sacked.

                            Pietersen said he made the decision "in light of recent communications with the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) and the media stories that followed".

                            "It would be extremely difficult for me to continue in my current position," added the 28-year-old's statement.

                            Andrew Strauss has been named as captain for the tour of the West Indies, which begins on 21 January.

                            Hugh Morris, managing director of the ECB, said in a statement that the search for a new coach would begin "immediately".

                            "This has become an impossible situation given the irretrievable breakdown of the relationship between captain and coach," he added.

                            "Kevin recognised that in the present situation it was impossible to restore the dressing room unity, which is vital if England are to win the forthcoming tour to the Caribbean, the ICC global events or regain the Ashes in the npower Ashes Test series."

                            Pietersen will, however, continue to play his part as a member of the team, with Morris adding: "I have an extremely high respect and regard for Kevin. He remains highly valued as a senior and experienced player."

                            News of Pietersen and Moores's departures ended a day of claim, counter-claim and confusion, which began with rumours that the pair had both tendered their resignations.

                            However, Pietersen, who will return to England from South Africa on Thursday, was keen to set the record straight.

                            "Contrary to media speculation, I wish to make it very clear that I did not resign as captain of the England cricket team this morning," he said.

                            "But in light of recent communications with the ECB, and the unfortunate media stories and speculation that have subsequently appeared, I now consider that it would be extremely difficult for me to continue in my current position.

                            "Accordingly, I have as of this afternoon decided to stand down with immediate effect. I still fully intend to be a part of both England's Test and one-day international squad to tour the West Indies next month and to do all I can to recapture the Ashes during the summer."

                            It has been reported that Pietersen and Moores disagreed over a range of issues, including team selection - most notably that of Michael Vaughan - training regimes and leadership style.

                            And Pietersen admitted last week his relationship with Moores was strained as they clashed on how to move England forward.


                            However, the South African-born batsman denied he was at fault for the pair's disagreements being fed to the media, saying: "I have principles in my professional and personal life as to how things are done.
                            "During my time as England captain I have always been both helpful and direct in my communications with the ECB.

                            "At no time, contrary to press speculation, have I released any unauthorised information to the media regarding my relationships with the players, coaches and the ECB itself."

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mobbme View Post
                              When was Cricket tabbed a sport? ;)
                              I still use 'em as fishbait lil' bro;)
                              "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories." Thomas Jefferson

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Chaobam Armour View Post
                                Hey Bigfella: Just as Australia looks to be at it weakest in a quarter of a century, England has taken careful aim and shot itself in both feet.

                                England captain Kevin Pietersen has quit in the wake of his rift with coach Peter Moores, who has been sacked.
                                Impressive work CA. A captain AND a coach. What is that Oscar Wilde line about two looking like carelessness?:P The only upside is that a Windies tour isn't the morale crushing exercise it once was.

                                One correction, we are at our weakest in about 20 years. From 83-88 we were various shades of appalling. We even managed to lose to some well ordinary English outfits.;)

                                The current team is not great, but our top 5 batsmen still average from mid-40s to high 50s & our keeper averages 40. There are a few very talented young batsmen in the wings - expect to see them in England this year. The bowling is a worry, but Stuart Clark will be back from injury soon & Lee has been overbowled & ill this year. he will come back. There is some young talent about, with the new boys (Johnson, Siddle & Bollinger) looking good. We don't have a quality spin bowler unfortunately.

                                We're probably no.3 in the world. From 83-88 we got as low as second last (and the last team was Sri Lanka - which only started playing in '83). We won't fall that far again. I'm predicting perhaps 3 or 4 years away from the top before we are a serious threat again (5-6 at worst).
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