Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Coming War with Iran and The Future of the Clash of Civilizations

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Yusuf,
    The average Paksitani elite are not the one's who spew this venom. Its the pro establishment lobby which is as shrewd as a jackal, who know, that if they have to continue to hold power, constantly, they have to do couple of things.

    1. Keep legitimising the 2 nation theory.
    2. Keep the Islam vs Jew/Hindu/Christian BS propaganda upbeat.
    3. Maintain an fear of western/modern/open scocietal values amongst masses.
    4. Blow the nuclear trumpet to grab leadership/patronage from the muslim world.
    5. Keep using non-state actors, while providing state support to drive their own goal.
    6. Drug their population about the imminent birth and rise of the final prophet who will lead Pakistan to its undisputable, ultimate glory of world leadership with its nukes.

    As a Shia, you must be aware that Shias believes that the prophet is already born, he is just not visible, while the pro Sunni establishment is savoring the idea of the birth of an antichrist type of a character, who would glorify Pakistan and their definition of Islam to its ultimate glory through war/arms and large scale bloodshed. This country has degraded in a complete state of denial. I'm at times lost while thinking, how could a population who shared the very values and bread with 120 billion Indians, both hindus as well as their fellow muslims, just some 60 years back, degrade and change so drastically? What have they done with their population, most importantly their youth who are ready to blow themselves up for transnational pseudo religious issues, having NOTHING to do with anything concerning their country?
    The heart and mind heavies with sadness and a sense of loss.
    sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Yusuf View Post
      Sorry Delta for talking off topic. But yes Pakistan has always felt it was the leader of the Islamic world.
      In general, the Arabs seem to be rather race-conscious. I don't think they'd accept the "leadership" of Pakistan, even if Pakistan were an economic and military powerhouse.

      In Malaysia, the other state he mentions as being a potential "pole" of the Islamic world, the industrial base there is Chinese-owned. Indonesia as well.

      Iran, in my opinion, has the greatest potential of any Islamic state. An indigenously developed economy, a solidly established industrial base, natural resources, large geographically without an enormous population, a fertility rate at the replacement level, lays astride natural trade routes, strategically located, and so on. If its international relations were to normalize, it would be hands-down the premier state of the Islamic world and leap lightyears ahead of any particular edge any Islamic state has over it. Only problem is that it's Shi'ite.
      "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
        In general, the Arabs seem to be rather race-conscious. I don't think they'd accept the "leadership" of Pakistan, even if Pakistan were an economic and military powerhouse.

        In Malaysia, the other state he mentions as being a potential "pole" of the Islamic world, the industrial base there is Chinese-owned. Indonesia as well.

        Iran, in my opinion, has the greatest potential of any Islamic state. An indigenously developed economy, a solidly established industrial base, natural resources, large geographically without an enormous population, a fertility rate at the replacement level, lays astride natural trade routes, strategically located, and so on. If its international relations were to normalize, it would be hands-down the premier state of the Islamic world and leap lightyears ahead of any particular edge any Islamic state has over it. Only problem is that it's Shi'ite.
        You are right ID, but its the Pakistani perception that im talking about. They "feel" they are leaders of the Islamic world. Partly because of them holding nukes.

        Comment


        • #19
          Delta,

          Pakistani psyche is probably driven by what the Army does. It has always dominated Pakistani society. Even right now, it has created a war hysteria to deflect attention from the real issues. (Dont want to start another Indo-Pak thing here. Just posting in context)

          I feel if Iran could democratize,then it could lay claim to be the leaders of the Islamic world for all the reasons ID pointed out

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
            6. Drug their population about the imminent birth and rise of the final prophet who will lead Pakistan to its undisputable, ultimate glory of world leadership with its nukes.

            As a Shia, you must be aware that Shias believes that the prophet is already born, he is just not visible, while the pro Sunni establishment is savoring the idea of the birth of an antichrist type of a character, who would glorify Pakistan and their definition of Islam to its ultimate glory through war/arms and large scale bloodshed. This country has degraded in a complete state of denial.
            Sunnis don't belive in a messianic figure, we consider Mohammed as being the last Prophet. So get your facts strait, if you want your Pak-bashing to be taken seriously!
            Last edited by Hitman817; 28 Dec 08,, 13:30.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Yusuf View Post
              I feel if Iran could democratize,then it could lay claim to be the leaders of the Islamic world for all the reasons ID pointed out
              Problem is Iran's 90% Shi'ite. Iraq is majority Shi'ite, and Lebanon has a plurality of Shi'ites. The Sunni-majority countries wouldn't bandwagon with Iran, in my opinion.
              "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                Sunnis don't belive in a messianic figure, we consider Mohammed as being the last Prophet. So get your facts strait, if you want your Pak-bashing to be taken seriously!
                I was under the impression that Islamic end-time prophecy holds that Jesus will return to battle the dajjal.
                "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                  I was under the impression that Islamic end-time prophecy holds that Jesus will return to battle the dajjal.
                  The Shias believes that not the Sunnis, the Koran is pretty clear on this matter, Mohammed is the seal of all prophets, there will be none afther him. This is official Sunni doctrine.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                    Sunnis don't belive in a messianic figure, we consider Mohammed as being the last Prophet. So get your facts strait, if you want your Pak-bashing to be taken seriously!
                    Hitman817,
                    Stand down. Read well before you post. I never mentioned that the Sunnis believe in the return of the Prophet. I was addressing Yusuf, who's a Shia and was merely stated that the pro establishment Sunni lobby is indoctrinating the youth to believe that a larger than life (in our views, an antichrist type) of character will take the Pakistani establishment to the heights of global glory and pave the way for the ultimate supremacy of Islam.
                    while the pro Sunni establishment is savoring the idea of the birth of an antichrist type of a character, who would glorify Pakistan and their definition of Islam to its ultimate glory through war/arms and large scale bloodshed.
                    And I DON'T want you to take my Pakistan bashing seriously, because I don't believe it to be any kind of bashing. We are living in a dangerous neighbourhood, with a nation, whose citizens are being fed with a ominous kind of politico-religious terrorist ideology, which is leading to the massacre of hapless civilians. Its NOT your war and it is ABSOLUTELY not your eligibility to term our concern as "bashing".
                    sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                      Hitman817,
                      Stand down. Read well before you post. I never mentioned that the Sunnis believe in the return of the Prophet. I was addressing Yusuf, who's a Shia and was merely stated that the pro establishment Sunni lobby is indoctrinating the youth to believe that a larger than life (in our views, an antichrist type) of character will take the Pakistani establishment to the heights of global glory and pave the way for the ultimate supremacy of Islam.
                      Well we don't also belive in an antichrist-like figure or any figure/leader for the end of times, and if the Pakistanis teach that to their children that's just wrong. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but you really should have emphazised more the Pakistani aspect of this indoctrination and not the Sunni one, I am a sunni and I have never heard of such a figure/leader.

                      And I DON'T want you to take my Pakistan bashing seriously, because I don't believe it to be any kind of bashing. We are living in a dangerous neighbourhood, with a nation, whose citizens are being fed with a ominous kind of politico-religious terrorist ideology, which is leading to the massacre of hapless civilians. Its NOT your war and it is ABSOLUTELY not your eligibility to term our concern as "bashing".
                      Look, I didn't mean to diminish your plight, we Turks are in a similar situation, so I understand you quite well, but by accusing "Sunnis", you actually made it my bussiness, since I am one myself. Just be careful with generalizing and we wont have any problems with each other.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        [QUOTE=Deltacamelately;595289]Hitman817,
                        We are living in a dangerous neighbourhood, with a nation, whose citizens are being fed with an ominous kind of politico-religious terrorist ideology, which is leading to the massacre of hapless civilians. Its NOT your war and it is ABSOLUTELY not your eligibility to term our concern as bashing[QUOTE]


                        Hitman , ref your A bomb Civvies being killed and Japanese culture ,, see the comparison here ,,it shouldnt happen to civilians.


                        Like i said , it will always happen ,sad tho it is .

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tankie View Post

                          Hitman , ref your A bomb Civvies being killed and Japanese culture ,, see the comparison here ,,it shouldnt happen to civilians.


                          Like i said , it will always happen ,sad tho it is .
                          Yes I know that this always happens, esspecially if you fight an asymetrical war, but that doesn't make it right!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                            Yes I know that this always happens, esspecially if you fight an asymetrical war, but that doesn't make it right!
                            I will be very interested as to how you personally , can find the answers to avoid it then.

                            And yes, it isnt right !

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Yusuf View Post
                              I feel if Iran could democratize,then it could lay claim to be the leaders of the Islamic world for all the reasons ID pointed out
                              Iranian secularists, nationalists and socialists / marxists have no interest in claiming 'leadership of the Islamic world'. So if Iran didn't have the Islamic Republic, its role in Islamic causes in the Middle East would amount to very little, if not cease to exist. The only Iranian faction with these kinds of aspirations are ultra-fanatics within the present regime - and it cant even be said that they make-up a majority in the Islamic Republic, which is more faction-ridden and ideologically disunited than you know. The regime realized during the 1980s that 'exporting the revolution' and being the 'leader of the Islamic world' was an impossible task. But most importantly, ordinary Iranian people hold no such ambitions about being some kind of 'leaders' of the Muslim world. The average Iranian wants nothing to do with countries and societies like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Iran may be a Muslim majority country with a theocratic regime, but Iranian people are not Islamic fundamentalists. We have our own identity and culture that is separate from Islam and is just as important to most Iranians as being Muslim is.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                                In general, the Arabs seem to be rather race-conscious. I don't think they'd accept the "leadership" of Pakistan, even if Pakistan were an economic and military powerhouse.
                                Its not just Arabs. Nobody would accept any kind of leadership from Pakistan and nobody looks up to them. If anything, Pakistan has a negative image and people look down on them. I have never heard a good word about Pakistan from anyone. That might sound harsh but its simply the truth.

                                Iran, in my opinion, has the greatest potential of any Islamic state. An indigenously developed economy, a solidly established industrial base, natural resources, large geographically without an enormous population, a fertility rate at the replacement level, lays astride natural trade routes, strategically located, and so on. If its international relations were to normalize, it would be hands-down the premier state of the Islamic world and leap lightyears ahead of any particular edge any Islamic state has over it. Only problem is that it's Shi'ite.
                                Shi'a and non-Arab. If you pay closer attention to Middle Eastern politics you will notice the tendency of Arab politicians to make frequent references to the "Arab and Muslim world". Note the "Arab" in there, which always comes first before the "Muslim". Hypocrites? I think so. First priority for them is the "Arab world" whether they are outwardly nationalists or self-professed pan-Islamists. The Arabs always make the distinction between the two "Muslim worlds", the Arab and the non-Arab. I seem to recall a Bin Laden audio (perhaps more than one) where even he makes the distinction. So yeah, its something imbedded into their psyche whether they realize it or not or admit to it or not.

                                So if it isnt Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad or Riyadh - their not going to accept 'leadership'. And now even Baghdad may be out of the picture because of it coming under the Shi'a fold.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X