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Thread: Israel to enhance range of Indian SLBM Sagarika to 2500 km

  1. #1
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Israel to enhance range of Indian SLBM Sagarika to 2500 km

    Israel to enhance range of Indian SLBM Sagarika to 2500 km

    Ran Dagoni, Washington 23 Feb 05 14:21

    "Defense News" reports that India has given the go-ahead to its Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to speed up development of a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM). India has asked Israel for "technical assistance" on the development work. Russia also wants to provide "aid".

    The missile program is called "Sagarika". Defense News'' quotes top DRDO scientists as saying that they have received permission to extend the missile's range from the originally planned 1,000 kilometers to 2,500 kilometers. The Sagarika currently has a range of only 300 kilometers. A top Indian scientist said extending the Sagarika's range was intended to give it nuclear deterrent capability.

    A senior Israel Ministry of Defense official told "Defense News" that Israel was in talks with the DRDO on the latter's critical programs, including missiles.

    Under the accelerated Sagarika development program, the DRDO will utilize Israeli and Russian assistance to carry out a test launch within two years. In June, the DRDO hopes to test fire the Sagarika from a land site, using a guidance system upgraded with the help of Russian scientists from NPOM - Russia’s state-supported cruise missile and space technology design bureau - based at the DRDO.

    A senior NPOM official said although Russian scientist had provided critical hardware for the guidance system, they had any no connection with developing the Sagarika as a nuclear deterrent.

    At a press conference on February 11, DRDO scientific adviser M Natarajan denied that the Sagarika program existed. However, two days earlier, India's Minister of Defence Pranab Mukherjee said there were delays in the missile's development.

    In separate matter, a senior Indian Ministry of Defence official said two Israeli companies would participate in upgrading 15 Indian Navy Sea Harrier vertical take-off and landing jets, stationed on the INS Viraat aircraft carrier. "Globes" reported on February 8 that Rafael (Israel Armament Development Authority Ltd.) had won a $25 million tender to provide 20 Derby missiles for Indian Navy jets. It has now been learned that IAI-Elta Electronics Industries will provide the upgraded Sea Harriers with radar systems and will upgrade the plane's avionics.

    At the Aero India 2005 exhibition earlier this month in Bangalore, Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) displayed its Mosquito micro-unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), which can be launched from inside a room, and its Bird 400 UAV. Defense News'' reports that IAI is the largest vendor of UAV's to the Indian Army.

    At the Aero India 2005, IAI also displayed its Delilah missile, which India wants to buy. Rafael displayed its SPYDER Air Defense System, which incorporates the Derby active radar (RF) missile and Python 5 dual waveband Imaging Infra Red (IIR) missile. India wants to buy 75 Spyders.
    Once again, the Israeli India defence issues are there in the open forums.

    It is becoming a real strong relationship indeed.

  2. #2
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    Forgive me but to point out the obvious double standard the US has for Israel and for China. Israel is opennly defiant of any anti-nuclear proliferation while the US seeks out every little nuiance that might suggest the Chinese are actual nuclear weapons proliferators.

    I have always said that Israel is the US's most dangerous ally. This just adds to my beliefs.

  3. #3
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    " Forgive me but to point out the obvious double standard the US has for Israel and for China. Israel is opennly defiant of any anti-nuclear proliferation while the US seeks out every little nuiance that might suggest the Chinese are actual nuclear weapons proliferators. I have always said that Israel is the US's most dangerous ally. This just adds to my beliefs."

    To be honest if they did not buy off so many politicians they would not even be our friend...

    Nothing better then a "friend" which openly sells to our enemies and other rather nasty governments...

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    Boy you two better pucker up, cuz the anti-semetism cheese tsunami is about to pummel you guys into a couple of criminals in a few minutes!

    My buddy ZF will shut you boys out now! Just watch..... Take cover Troung! You will be branded an Anti Semetic person now!

  5. #5
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Troung,

    India is the enemy of the US?

    That's news.

    Still not surface from the Cold War era?

    The US requires India for ensuring the Malacca Straits West is free from 'undesirable' influences. India plays a big role in US's scheme of things. It also helps India.

    Likewise Russia is worried of challengers in the neighbourhood and doesn't consider India close.

    Ah these games of international strategy and international politics. They never fail to amaze.

    Lull,

    Troung needn't worry.

    My brother in law is a Canadian Jew.

    Troung,

    Israel is US's listening post in the ME and they are doing a pretty good job irresepective of any lobbies in the US that you maybe alluding to.
    Last edited by Ray; 03 Mar 05, at 23:16.

  6. #6
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    "Take cover Troung! You will be branded an Anti Semetic person now!"

    That would mean I had a problem with the religion and not a massive problem with their export policies and the fact we give them so much damn money only to be stabbed in the back.

    "India is the enemy of the US? That's news. Still not surface from the Cold War era? The US requires India for ensuring the Malacca Straits West is free from 'undesirable' influences. India plays a big role in US's scheme of things. It also helps India."

    Is India Israel's only client?

    I was more talking about the fact that Israel has sold large amounts of weapons to China such as the Python Mk.3 (called PL-8), HARPY drone, avoinics and the fact we had to give them money after they had to cancel the Phalcon. And the J-10 in many ways looks awfuly like the Lavi which was built at AMERICAN expense. Then back in 1992 a report came out about them supplying PAC-2 tech to the Chinese. Americans could be killed because of those sales and they more then know it.

    And lets forget all the money we give them at taxpayer expense and they have the gall to demand money for not selling to our enemies. They are not our real allies or some damn listening point they just own spinless congressmen who pay back campaign money with American taxdollars.

    They also sell lots of weapons to the human rights voilating junta in Burma. Thr M-2032 radar in Burmese J-7Ms came from Israel. The Burmese Python Mk.3s (not PL-8/9s) came from Israel as did LITENING IIs, and LIZARD guided bombs. Great people who kill hunderds of civilians a year. And the Israelis have also sold them artillery used to shell villages and people are still scratching their heads at where Burmese M-4 Carbines came from back in 2001 . Great people.

    Everyone in the US knocks the French for selling to everyone which is a joke compared to the Israelis who will sell to both sides of a conflict and to our enemies (China) and then expect/demand us to keep them safe. Hezbollah TOW missiles came from Iran which bought them from Israeli stocks (nothing to do with the Iran Contra sales either). So yeah it is hard to think nice of a nation that will literally sell to anyone even there own enemies.

    Dead wieght we should cut... we have cut people who have given far more service and spilled blood for us... cutting off people who literally spit in our face would be easy if not for buying off congressmen....

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    RAy,
    can u post the weblink for it too. ?

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    Lull, the fact that you can't differentiate between your actual anti-Semitism and Troung's reasonable arguments (although I happen to disagree with him on some of it) is sad. It pisses me off when Israel sells to countries like China, although I have no problem with weapons sales to India. I do not approve of everything Israel does, but that doesn't change my personal opinion on Israel's status as an ally. Aswell, how a country governs itself should be taken into account. After all, the US will not apply sanctions on France or any Western democracy, no matter who they sell weapons to. Democracies have never fought against eachother, and IMO should all be allies. I know one obviously has to look out for their own interests first, so...I don't know. I suppose Israel hasn't really done anything to earn US aid, but nonetheless I would be sad to see that aid vanish. Okay, part of it is cause I'm Jewish, but I'm more of a believer in a united West (not just Western Europe and North America though, anyone who fits the government ande economic type like Japan and South Korea), and I happen to see Israel as part of the West.
    Last edited by ZFBoxcar; 04 Mar 05, at 02:07.

  9. #9
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    "Lull, the fact that you can't differentiate between your actual anti-Semitism and Troung's reasonable arguments (although I happen to disagree with him on some of it) is sad."

    Well as long as you think it is reasonable even though you don't agree

    Never minded if people agreed or didn't with me as long as they think I am reasonable and remain reasonable themselves

    "It pisses me off when Israel sells to countries like China, although I have no problem with weapons sales to India."

    For the time being America's relations with India are getting better so thats fine but China is a future enemy which is actively threatening a democratic nation. Selling to India and Singapore is one thing but open sales to a rouge state like Burma and an enemy like China is totally different. Israel also sold weapons to South Africa when the rest of the world put them under sanctions, the South African R-4 assault rifle is the Galil. Even France put them under sanctions

    I'm just saying for a nation which should be enlightened on HR issues to keep friends like that...

    "Aswell, how a country governs itself should be taken into account. After all, the US will not apply sanctions on France or any Western democracy, no matter who they sell weapons to."

    Well France has sanctioned people (Libya, South Africa, Iraq for a few) and followed through on sanctions.

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    but open sales to a rouge state like Burma and an enemy like China is totally different. Israel also sold weapons to South Africa when the rest of the world put them under sanctions, the South African R-4 assault rifle is the Galil. Even France put them under sanctions but open sales to a rouge state like Burma and an enemy like China is totally different. Israel also sold weapons to South Africa when the rest of the world put them under sanctions, the South African R-4 assault rifle is the Galil. Even France put them under sanctions
    You're right. And every Israeli I know is ashamed of the South Africa thing. It doesn't change what happend, but the Israeli people see themselves as America's ally and a lot of them do get mad at their government when they do things like this. Israeli economic interests in South Africa managed to hijack their morality. Although...Israel is not the only country to have had this problem...

    I'm just saying for a nation which should be enlightened on HR issues to keep friends like that...
    Yeah, I know although the US supports the Saudi regime. I know its not a valid argument to say that one country doing something makes it ok for another country to do it, but to single out Israel is not right. The fact that Israel receives so much aid from the US does mean they should listen to the US on this stuff, so if you are making that point, then you are right.

    Well France has sanctioned people (Libya, South Africa, Iraq for a few) and followed through on sanctions.
    Right, but France would never sanction a fellow democracy, which is what I'm trying to say.

  11. #11
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    "And every Israeli I know is ashamed of the South Africa thing."

    Well everyone who at any point did business with pre free South Africa should be ashamed of themselves (including Britain, France, America, Austria, Germany, Belguim and so forth),

    "but the Israeli people see themselves as America's ally and a lot of them do get mad at their government when they do things like this."

    Well the people may like us but the government/industial arms complex does really lets be honest spit in our face. Look at how the Lavi is even talked about over there like it is our fault it failed when it was our money in the 1st place. And the fact that to get a few bucks they would transfer data on our weapons to our known enemies.

    "Right, but France would never sanction a fellow democracy, which is what I'm trying to say."

    Well democracy is not always seen by some to be a good thing . And by that I mean "enlightened" nations like the USA, England or France for example. America threw sanctions on Chile before their left wing government lost power in a bloody coup. Algeria is "fine" and in our camp even though the "Islamists" they are fighting won an election in a landslide and watched the results get over turned. Lon Nol was "great" as well as others. And of course we have the Shah...

    "Yeah, I know although the US supports the Saudi regime. I know its not a valid argument to say that one country doing something makes it ok for another country to do it, but to single out Israel is not right. The fact that Israel receives so much aid from the US does mean they should listen to the US on this stuff, so if you are making that point, then you are right. "

    Well the listening was the big point. And we have export laws on selling things which Israel often ignores. And the gall of the Phalcon to China and making us pay them in spite of export laws on the use and transfer of our tech got me mad.

    I'm not singling out Israel (don't hate the people) and I have lots of bad things to say about lots of nations HR and arms policy issues

  12. #12
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    I think India-defence.

  13. #13
    Senior Contributor Samudra's Avatar
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    During AI-2005 , i had the chance to speak to representative of the RCI at their stall.I was asking him about the Akash SAM thingy , and suddenly asked him about what was happening with Sagarika .....and the P-15

    He was surprised , and asked me if i were a journa...He was more happy to find out that i was just another stupid student , who just happened to know something about missiles they were developing.

    He smiled like a Buddha and said , "Its Big.Its going on.Dont Worry" and handed over some organisational newsletter and bid Good Bye.

    Only after i looked at the newsletter , i realised i was speaking to big shot in RCI !
    He was photo was there , and looked like he was the #2 , after Dr.Prahlada !

    And i never even had his autograph.
    ( Kick Kick Kick.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by troung
    "Take cover Troung! You will be branded an Anti Semetic person now!"

    That would mean I had a problem with the religion and not a massive problem with their export policies and the fact we give them so much damn money only to be stabbed in the back.

    "India is the enemy of the US? That's news. Still not surface from the Cold War era? The US requires India for ensuring the Malacca Straits West is free from 'undesirable' influences. India plays a big role in US's scheme of things. It also helps India."

    Is India Israel's only client?

    I was more talking about the fact that Israel has sold large amounts of weapons to China such as the Python Mk.3 (called PL-8), HARPY drone, avoinics and the fact we had to give them money after they had to cancel the Phalcon. And the J-10 in many ways looks awfuly like the Lavi which was built at AMERICAN expense. Then back in 1992 a report came out about them supplying PAC-2 tech to the Chinese. Americans could be killed because of those sales and they more then know it.

    And lets forget all the money we give them at taxpayer expense and they have the gall to demand money for not selling to our enemies. They are not our real allies or some damn listening point they just own spinless congressmen who pay back campaign money with American taxdollars.

    They also sell lots of weapons to the human rights voilating junta in Burma. Thr M-2032 radar in Burmese J-7Ms came from Israel. The Burmese Python Mk.3s (not PL-8/9s) came from Israel as did LITENING IIs, and LIZARD guided bombs. Great people who kill hunderds of civilians a year. And the Israelis have also sold them artillery used to shell villages and people are still scratching their heads at where Burmese M-4 Carbines came from back in 2001 . Great people.

    Everyone in the US knocks the French for selling to everyone which is a joke compared to the Israelis who will sell to both sides of a conflict and to our enemies (China) and then expect/demand us to keep them safe. Hezbollah TOW missiles came from Iran which bought them from Israeli stocks (nothing to do with the Iran Contra sales either). So yeah it is hard to think nice of a nation that will literally sell to anyone even there own enemies.

    Dead wieght we should cut... we have cut people who have given far more service and spilled blood for us... cutting off people who literally spit in our face would be easy if not for buying off congressmen....

    That was meant as a joke troung! And you knew that......

    Anyway coming to Troungs important point, was the double standards issue he has left out. Not that countries don't have double standards, but in the case of our jewish buddies, we have special interests because of their strangle hold on the congress and their concerted media campaign to influence cheese pumpers like the ones found on this forum, as to the totally bogus and hollow argument of how wonderful it is that Israel being the "only' democracy in the middle east forms the basis of our 'Special' relationship with them.

    this special relationship also bypasses other important laws and legal regulations enacted by our sell out confgress and thugs that sit in our pathetic govt. offices and claim to have the moral authority and righteousness to make determinations as to who gets sanctioned and "Why"!

    The U.S. govt. has zero credibility INMO after the latest iraq debacle where we have allowed thugs like pearle and Wolfowitz and other fundos to influence and harm U.S. interests world wide.

    also case in point for the double standards is sanctioning Pakistan for the better part of 15 years until the fateful days of sep 2001 and all this while looking the other way for the jewish thugs and their fairly well developed nuclear program. Why the double standards?

    The U.S. is not an honest broker of peace. Its foreign policy has been hijacked by these pro-israeli PAC's, and these crooked congressmen, who bend over when the jews throw money at them.

    I have no respect for the United States govt. as an entity. INMO they are a bunch of thugs and criminals. No different than the ones they go after around the world.
    Last edited by lulldapull; 04 Mar 05, at 05:01.

  15. #15
    Senior Contributor Samudra's Avatar
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    Everyone has their double standards.

    Like Uncle turning the other way , when Pakistan was eating grass to produce a atom bomb.Like India cosying up with the Myanmar military regime , despite making noises about "democracy".

    Tis the Great Game.

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