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  • Defeating the Mongols?

    So i'm a big aficionado for military history, from the ancient Egyptians to modern American GIs. As such, I often participate in simulations of historical battles on historical forums, simulations both based on real battles and fictional. In these simulations, each side has a set amount of forces and each player makes strategic decisions that determine if they win or lose. It's pretty simple, and quite interesting at times. Making the Romans win at Carrhae, for example, is quite a mental challenge.

    I'm currently taking part in a fictional simulation campaign of sorts, in which the geo-political situation is based on Europe of the 1200s. I'm in command of a nation analogous to the Byzantine Empire, an empire that, while still a force to be reckoned with, has been in considerable decline for the last few hundred years. Despite this, a professional field army of 37,000 troops is maintained (respectable enough, by medieval standards). This force comprises:

    10,000 heavy infantry, armed with sword, shield and javelins
    8,000 spearmen, spear and shield troops
    4,000 heavy cavalry/horse archers, analogous to real world cataphracts
    2,000 knights, a kind of religious order of chivalry
    4,000 light cavalry, reconnaisance and screening purposes, as well as light lancers
    7,000 foot archers, armed with Eastern-style recurve bows
    2,000 skirmishers, with slings and javelins

    That's the Empire's standing mobile field army, not included amongst the various town and city garrisons.

    Now, i'm being invaded from the east by what can be best described as... Mongols. Highly disciplined, swift, ferocious horse archers and lancers, a highly mobile army. The question is, how to defeat these Mongols? Horse archers are the troops of the ancient world that truly had no weakness, they combined firepower, manueverablity and mobility in a way that no other army could match. So how can you defeat Mongols when you are not Mamlukes?

  • #2
    Originally posted by HoratioNelson View Post
    So i'm a big aficionado for military history, from the ancient Egyptians to modern American GIs. As such, I often participate in simulations of historical battles on historical forums, simulations both based on real battles and fictional. In these simulations, each side has a set amount of forces and each player makes strategic decisions that determine if they win or lose. It's pretty simple, and quite interesting at times. Making the Romans win at Carrhae, for example, is quite a mental challenge.

    I'm currently taking part in a fictional simulation campaign of sorts, in which the geo-political situation is based on Europe of the 1200s. I'm in command of a nation analogous to the Byzantine Empire, an empire that, while still a force to be reckoned with, has been in considerable decline for the last few hundred years. Despite this, a professional field army of 37,000 troops is maintained (respectable enough, by medieval standards). This force comprises:

    10,000 heavy infantry, armed with sword, shield and javelins
    8,000 spearmen, spear and shield troops
    4,000 heavy cavalry/horse archers, analogous to real world cataphracts
    2,000 knights, a kind of religious order of chivalry
    4,000 light cavalry, reconnaisance and screening purposes, as well as light lancers
    7,000 foot archers, armed with Eastern-style recurve bows
    2,000 skirmishers, with slings and javelins

    That's the Empire's standing mobile field army, not included amongst the various town and city garrisons.

    Now, i'm being invaded from the east by what can be best described as... Mongols. Highly disciplined, swift, ferocious horse archers and lancers, a highly mobile army. The question is, how to defeat these Mongols? Horse archers are the troops of the ancient world that truly had no weakness, they combined firepower, manueverablity and mobility in a way that no other army could match. So how can you defeat Mongols when you are not Mamlukes?
    In the cities

    1- burn the fields around your cities and draw in all your stores, send the peasants and as many of the towns folk as possible out of harms way. Scorched earth, without grass the ponies don't eat. Hopefully they are not invading in spring, but late summer or fall when the grass is dry.

    2- fill your cisterns and stock up on stone and oil. Mongol siege tactics are no better than anyone elses, make them pay to take the walls.

    3- build redoubts inside the city to channel breakins towards waiting reserves.

    4- use your heavy infantry to strengthen your garrisons.

    5- If you can justify it, fling dead bodies at them, let disease do the dirty work.

    In the field, your 10,000 horse, light foot, and archers are going to be the hammer for the anvil cities. your skirmishers should be able to double as scouts. When the Mongols set in to segie a city and send off part of their force with the remounts due to lack of fodder, attacker the weaker force.

    If you hit the forces around the city, make sure the heavy infantry will sally out and the cities siege engines will support you. Your goal are the trains- carry torches

    If you go after the force with the remounts, scatter the herd and drive for the trains.

    Either way, pull back quick, use your archers behind caltrops with a solid terrain feature to screen the flanks to cover and force the pursuit to break off. Even the mongols won't charge an arrow storm. 1000 archers firing 6 times a minute is 360,000 arrows an hour if my math is right.

    The idea is to keep an army in the feild and avid getting it defeated until the campaign season is over and the invaders start to starve. Since your Byzantium, you've got a navy and sea born trade routes to keep your core cities supplied.

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    • #3
      Two donkeys loaded with gold.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        Two donkeys loaded with gold.
        and a well aimed knife ;) (gotta love TW series)

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        • #5
          Two donkeys loaded with gold.
          Or do what the Byzantines did; money and princesses...
          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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          • #6
            Originally posted by troung View Post
            Or do what the Byzantines did; money and princesses...
            Not on the same donkey though;)
            Nulli Secundus
            People always talk of dying for their country, and never of making the other bastard die for his

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            • #7
              That's the Empire's standing mobile field army, not included amongst the various town and city garrisons.
              37k would be either wiped out or rendered useless after a couple battles. The Mongol empire put around 150k men into the field during Hulegu's invasion of the Middle East. Now defend against raids and feints and see your field army shrink to try and contain them. A 37k men field army the enemy would want to wipe out, an army less mobile and a lot smaller.

              As for burning your crops, do that for a couple years and see your peasants and nobles decide to invite the other guys in.

              Send princesses and money... ;)
              To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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              • #8
                Troung, was there ever a case the Mongols signed refused the princess because she was too ugly?

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                • #9
                  Troung, was there ever a case the Mongols signed refused the princess because she was too ugly?
                  Can't think of an example. Have you ever seen the women on the steppes after a life of hard labor and drinking... ;) . They took illegitimate daughters from the Byzantine king - seems the issue of directish royal lineage wasn't huge, :P . All things equal, I'm sure most women were ugly back then.

                  Can think of women not happy to go.

                  =====
                  IMHO and 37k field force might earn at best pyrrhic victory and then the state would still have deal with them still raiding and attacking and be basically undefended - dealing with a mounted army which could take cities - you would end up coming to terms if you had their undivided attention. The capital of the empire is great and all but welcome to 1400 if they take control of everything else. Terrain itself is not a disqualifier as the Mongols took and held Afghanistan and the Caucasus Mountains.

                  And if you are playing the grand Mongol Empire so then there are more than enough troops to ravage European Byzantium along with Anatolia.

                  The Mamluks lucked out and the Ilkhanate had two bigger fishes to deal with along with keeping their own locals in line.
                  Last edited by troung; 08 Dec 08,, 03:56.
                  To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Forment insurrection in their lines of supply, partisan movements etc...

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                    • #11
                      Use the terrain advantage .
                      Any swamp land would do nice ...

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                      • #12
                        To find the men for guerilla warfare or superb defensive terrain is easier said then done. Partisans would get squashed by the Mongols and one does not have the luxury to choose where the battle is for your attacking antagonist.
                        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                        • #13
                          well i could have said a tight mountain pass but it was a bit 300.
                          Or some heavy forest or any form of terrain that favour the defender .

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                          • #14
                            well i could have said a tight mountain pass but it was a bit 300.
                            Or some heavy forest or any form of terrain that favour the defender .
                            If they decide to engage and if they decide to charge right up a pass; and not move around, bring up artillery or simply not engage. BTW, the Mongols conquered plenty of places with mountain passes.
                            Last edited by troung; 10 Dec 08,, 22:41.
                            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I would go for tatical seige where their would be barrigades created to stop or obstruct the charging light cavalry, it would work as force multiplier and as a line of action or defence. I would also try to pick such a battlefeild which would be totally plain to avoid mogol surprices. Plains would also temp the mogols attack my army which is very necessary as per my strategy. The barricades would be reinforced with archers, knights and pikeman. I would position pikemen in lines with barricades who would be protected by archers. Both archers and pikemen would be protected by knights against incomming infantry. I would also station a few soilders armed with Javelins to protect from raiders. Weather to me would be less important.
                              My main focus would be on heavy horse knights as my primary weapon and husser(light cavalry) to protect my heavy cavalry against raiders and mongol cavalry archers. My main infantry would compose of columns knights seperated to each other by a small distance. These coluns would be protected by pikeman, hussers and archers.
                              I would begin the battle with defencive tatics. I would let mongols attack me and looking at their aggressive nature would keep on attacking. This would really get them weaken. Once they are weaken I would let my heavy horse knight charge on them under protection of hussers and my horse archers(specially trained for this purpose). The cavalry attack would be followed by attack of heavy infantry on a massive scale till i break their backs.
                              Whatever be the strategy we would require large number to fight mogols.
                              Please fill free to comment on my strategy? I have one more strategy completely opposite of this which I would post shortly.
                              Here comes the silent killer

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