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Defeating the Mongols?

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  • #31
    I am assuming 3 things. 1- he had warning perhaps the force is passing through pseudo-Georgia or pseudo-Armenia. 2- He got his infantry into the most threatened city. 2 his is marshaling his missile troops and cavalry near his pseudo-Byzantium as it is the logical place to pull all his troops together and then be able to launch a campaign.
    Georgia and Armenia became staunch Mongol allies, and could be staging posts for raids and a source of extra troops and garrison forces. Putting troops into pseudo Byzantium puts them pretty far from the frontier.

    As they set out they can at least cover the retreat of the rural population.
    Would they flee as soon as the Mongols took Armenia and Georgia? Will the rural population simply stay gone? How much of the population could 37k men (mostly infantry); cover the withdraw of in case of an invasion or major scale raid? Leaves the rural population open for attack and allows their resources to fall into Mongol hands.

    ==========
    We are ignoring the European invasion route...
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    • #32
      yeah, yeah, yeah but the point was the Yuan read the defeat.
      I meant today (2008) it would be the Mongols giving over princesses and mules... :P

      Thought that is what you were responding to, but I still left up my Esen comment - confusing myself now...
      Last edited by troung; 18 Dec 08,, 03:48.
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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      • #33
        Originally posted by troung View Post
        I meant today (2008) it would be the Mongols giving over princesses and mules... :P
        Troung, you're crapping me!

        With the Hong Kong starletts today, don't you think the Mongols would have quit, it not surrender to keep Paris Hilton out of Mongolia?

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        • #34
          Troung, you're crapping me! With the Hong Kong starletts today, don't you think the Mongols would have quit, it not surrender to keep Paris Hilton out of Mongolia?
          Ever listened to Mongolian hip hop?
          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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          • #35
            Oh god, you're sick!

            Give me a youtube. I will try for 30 seconds.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Forment insurrection in their lines of supply, partisan movements etc...
              They never had supply lines, they lived off the land, and they could move very quickly, and without stopping.:)

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              • #37
                Work out what their Communications System meant i.e. Flags and Horns.

                Poison there horses.

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                • #38
                  Poison there horses.
                  Seems easy enough

                  would go for tatical seige where their would be barrigades created to stop or obstruct the charging light cavalry, it would work as force multiplier and as a line of action or defence. I would also try to pick such a battlefeild which would be totally plain to avoid mogol surprices. Plains would also temp the mogols attack my army which is very necessary as per my strategy. The barricades would be reinforced with archers, knights and pikeman. I would position pikemen in lines with barricades who would be protected by archers. Both archers and pikemen would be protected by knights against incomming infantry. I would also station a few soilders armed with Javelins to protect from raiders. Weather to me would be less important.
                  Mohi.
                  Last edited by troung; 18 Dec 08,, 05:37.
                  To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Oh god, you're sick!

                    Give me a youtube. I will try for 30 seconds.
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ytwQtF_N-E

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuVex...eature=related
                    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by troung View Post
                      Georgia and Armenia became staunch Mongol allies, and could be staging posts for raids and a source of extra troops and garrison forces. Putting troops into pseudo Byzantium puts them pretty far from the frontier.
                      Lets separate history from the OP's question. If its going to be Subetai its all over anyway.

                      Would they flee as soon as the Mongols took Armenia and Georgia? Will the rural population simply stay gone? How much of the population could 37k men (mostly infantry); cover the withdraw of in case of an invasion or major scale raid? Leaves the rural population open for attack and allows their resources to fall into Mongol hands.
                      I was talking the horse and missile troops. That being said, a decent cavalry force backed by professional missile troops can make a good blocking force if they can get the right terrain. Even if they can't imperial troops would die trying.

                      ==========
                      We are ignoring the European invasion route...
                      Where ever they come from, the refugees lead the way- upper class types first.

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                      • #41
                        I was talking the horse and missile troops. That being said, a decent cavalry force backed by professional missile troops can make a good blocking force if they can get the right terrain. Even if they can't imperial troops would die trying.
                        Without the heavy infantry they have 19k troops. Crimea threw larger pillaging parties into Russia and Poland, the Kalymks could put twice that into the field on campaign. As for the right terrain, a lot depends on the enemy deciding to give battle there.

                        Does the "Byzantine" army shadow the refugees?

                        Lets separate history from the OP's question. If its going to be Subetai its all over anyway.
                        Good point.
                        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by troung View Post
                          Without the heavy infantry they have 19k troops. Crimea threw larger pillaging parties into Russia and Poland, the Kalymks could put twice that into the field on campaign. As for the right terrain, a lot depends on the enemy deciding to give battle there.

                          Does the "Byzantine" army shadow the refugees?
                          I would, but I am also a product of 20th Cn humanism. I am not sure. I think staying within striking range is a good idea in case the invaders/raiders decide to grab some slaves with a smaller party, leaving some to do the siege of a more frontier city.

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                          • #43
                            I think staying within striking range is a good idea in case the invaders/raiders decide to grab some slaves with a smaller party, leaving some to do the siege of a more frontier city.
                            19k men across an entire frontier trying to cover the retreat of refugees, they might cover the withdraw of some; but most are going to end up slaves or dead. And to cover the maximum amount that force would end up breaking up itself to provide coverage.

                            ====
                            The other thing is with pre-modern communications and poor reporting one might get a report of millions crossing the frontier in every direction and when things break down with refugees spreading panic morale would plummet.
                            Last edited by troung; 20 Dec 08,, 20:39.
                            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by troung View Post
                              19k men across an entire frontier trying to cover the retreat of refugees, they might cover the withdraw of some; but most are going to end up slaves or dead. And to cover the maximum amount that force would end up breaking up itself to provide coverage.
                              Refugees like roads,and eventually all roads will lead to the capitol. The feild army would need a place close to the threatened city(ies), yet able to act as a plug (not an umbrella) until the refugees were far enough away. It would not be a defense of the frontier.

                              ====
                              The other thing is with pre-modern communications and poor reporting one might get a report of millions crossing the frontier in every direction and when things break down with refugees spreading panic morale would plummet.
                              Very true, but a Byzantine like army would be professional so pre-fight morale is not that big of a concern. They might think they are marching to their deaths, but march they would. Where morale becomes import is when they face the enemy host. If its hopeless then they might break. But if those millions do not materialize then they might not.

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                              • #45
                                Refugees like roads,and eventually all roads will lead to the capitol. The feild army would need a place close to the threatened city(ies), yet able to act as a plug (not an umbrella) until the refugees were far enough away. It would not be a defense of the frontier.
                                If you stay near your cities (as to not get cut off from your own fortresses), you are pretty well leaving most people to the slave markets; which is fine actually.
                                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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