Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine in world??

[chanjyj]

While Singapore is preparing its new Type 218SG subs, it should be noted that our previous subs shared some tech with the Collins class. And when you consider that the Collins is in itself is a mix of Swedish, American, British, French...

N.B. My parent branch was the Air Force, and I am out of the loop so my info may be rusty. But it's still within the ballpark.

[SteveDaPirate]

What's the current plan for replacing the Collins class? I seem to recall speculation that Australia might buy, build, or lease Virginia class subs modified to their requirements. This was a few years ago however.

To be honest I was always curious about why Australia opted for diesel propulsion for the Collins class. I would think that a long shoreline and lots of blue water would be a natural fit for a nuke design.

[gf0012-aust]

What's the current plan for replacing the Collins class? I seem to recall speculation that Australia might buy, build, or lease Virginia class subs modified to their requirements. This was a few years ago however.

To be honest I was always curious about why Australia opted for diesel propulsion for the Collins class. I would think that a long shoreline and lots of blue water would be a natural fit for a nuke design.

there's a strong focus on doing a deal with the japanese on the soryu's. but, there's also a national security interest to build locally.
there has been a "longing" to drive nukes but its a political hand grenade that one side of politics is ideologically opposed to, and the other side is too scared to run the anti-nuke commentariat gauntlet.

quite frankly the public awareness about subs is irreparably damaged as its been a political football. in essence its good for the sub service as they don't need the general public to know how effective and important those subs are - but there is the downside when you have every moron with a keyboard and a pen writing about subs and what constiutes a good design.

there are times when i just want to rip my eyeballs out when I see some of the idiotic claims made by some.

eg, the usual news reports will invariably post some drivel about just buying a 214 derivative or S80, or Scorpene etc and then dumb down the debate to basics such as weapons fitout, and range.

another "eg". I don't care if I ever see the acronym "AIP" ever again - its gets thrown into the general debate like some kind of holy water solution without any appreciation of utility and benefit

Even some of my friends who know of my UDT background can sink a few beers and then seek to give me advice on how to build or buy a sub - at which point I switch off and turn into an acoustic mat :)

[USSDD715~DD510~]

thoughts

since someone already have opened this tread.


If you want a good Diesel submarine, you need it to be small and agile, and a small submarine is one of the hardest submarine to detect. This is something Norway have always been good at. I can give two example on this:

first we have an submarine from the 60's.

Kobben class:
build: 15
Displacement: 485 tons
Length: 47.2 meters
Speed: 17 knots submerged
Range: 4200 nmi
test depth: 180 m
crew 24

Armament:
8 X 533 mm torpedo tubes capable to firing following torpedo types: G7a (T1), Mk-31 Mod 1/2, Tp61, Tp612 Tp613

They was all updated with Kongsberg MSI-70U


Kobben class was replaced by Ula class. Ula class have an reputation, even in the US army:
- Under a blue Naval game in Norway with all NATo forces, a Ula class got disqualified, due to it sank to many ships.
- US Navy have often one of it's nuclear submarine in the North sea, and under one occasion, the Norwegian Navy wasn't informed about one of the US submarines. And when they complained to US Navy, the US Navy said they had no Subs in that area, Norwegian Navy answered with sending a under water photo taken by an Ula class submarine, following an US Submarine at close range. So close that you could'n park an second submarine in between them!
- during an Exercise in US, where an US task force (with aircraft carrier) was training in getting attacked by submarine. well the result was that the little Norwegian submarine sank the aircraft carrier, both submarines in the exercise, and sank most of the support ships (Destroyers, cruiser, frigates, etc.). The US Naval command was furious, after this: "How, the H*** can an single small Norwegian submarine, sink our task force?"

And the Norwegian Navy says the kobben class was better then Ula class!


Ula class
built: 1987-1992
completed: 6
Displacement: 1150 tons submerged
Length: 59 meters
Speed: 23 knots submerged
Range: 5000 nmi
test depth: 200 meters
crew: 18-21

Armament:
8 X 533 mm torpedo tubes with 14+ Atlas Elektronik DM2A3 torpedoes

note both of the subs above are build in Germany. that should answer why they are so good!

If someone should start a new list:
If you are talking about nuclear submarines, big nuclear-subs is okay. But if you talk about Diesel submarine, the size matters, and agility matters. to long, and you reduce the effectiveness of an diesel submarine, I would say 2000 tons max.

===============

Interesting comments. I don't think you can say so and so is the best submarine (unless the submarine we are comparing it to is hopelessly 35 years + out of date) Any torpedo or missile that hits your hull above water or below the waterline is unwanted. The sub or firing ship will be called effective even if it is 40 + years old.

But just remember that when you say during such and such war games we "bested you". If the parameters were: US forces at the beginning of the war game will be at Latitude XXX YYY Longitude GGG BBB, then, IF US forces, for example, don't cheat, on "home defense" a Dane, a Swede, a Norwegian, a German, a Brit might have "home advantage". In other words, you know your own "turf", Fjords, and where opposing player force is supposed to be, at such and such time, especially at the start of the game(s).

And I would say that that might mean that you are very good defending your home territory. I mean, you should be. That is your home !

However, if an "outsider" American, Russian, or Chinese, for example, doesn't play by those rules, then tracking might be a different story. The US or Britain or Russia or China are NEVER going to announce what they are going to do. The only reason I can think of for a western sub to be in your waters, ever, unless we have a goodwill tour, might be to hide, or listen to Russians.

Also it is one thing to announce an exercise in 48 hrs. and everyone is "keyed up". But After two weeks of boring patrol, is a sonar or radar watch still alert ? THAT is the 64,000 dollar question !

As far as I am concerned, all the northern navies build decent conventional subs. But you can still learn from the rest. The US, I believe, wound up providing technical help on the Australian Collins propeller, a few years back. (I think the original design wasn't strong enough) All your subs are built to run in your cold water. Cuba or Australia or India is a different story. How do your weapons systems work off Somalia ? (I know, you don't need to go there) Water temp off Somalia should be at least 35degrees warmer.

Perhaps "the funnest" thing to do is track an ally (without him detecting you) and two or three weeks later pass that information along to your Admiral who in turn says to that ally: by the way, did you know that your Frigate or submarine was tracked by Nato ally so and so at such and such a spot ?

So, in general, I don't see Scandinavian subs as real mid Atlantic or mid Pacific subs, though I concede that they will be MORE than effective in home waters.

As others have said, during war, "the gloves come off". During war I wouldn't fight fair, and I wouldn't tell anybody (except rank above me, and sometimes not then) what we are thinking or planning to do) It worked for the US in WWII.

[SteveDaPirate]

there's a strong focus on doing a deal with the japanese on the soryu's. but, there's also a national security interest to build locally.
there has been a "longing" to drive nukes but its a political hand grenade that one side of politics is ideologically opposed to, and the other side is too scared to run the anti-nuke commentariat gauntlet.

quite frankly the public awareness about subs is irreparably damaged as its been a political football.

Thanks for the insight. I didn't realize nukes were a political hot potato in Australia. (I thought that was just NZ)

I can certainly appreciate the desire to build the Collins replacement locally. As nice as a Virginia variant would be for covering large distances quickly, they certainly aren't cheap to build or man. A replacement based on the Soryu might let the RAN buy and field quite a few more platforms than if they went for nukes.

[gf0012-aust]

===============

Interesting comments. I don't think you can say so and so is the best submarine

You can't. exercises are meaningless comparisons in an open forum as they lack context - and they ignore what the exercise constraints were for blue and red

The US, I believe, wound up providing technical help on the Australian Collins propeller, a few years back. (I think the original design wasn't strong enough)

it was a materials science and acoustic management issue

All your subs are built to run in your cold water. Cuba or Australia or India is a different story. How do your weapons systems work off Somalia ? (I know, you don't need to go there) Water temp off Somalia should be at least 35degrees warmer..

some of the fundamental problems that the swedes had was getting a cold water design to work "as expected" in australian managed waters (1/9th of the worlds major ocean real estate in total) - and that doesn't include patrol areas outside of territorial management etc...

as proud as the OP is of his sub - its principle conops means that its designed to work in the littorals, grey, green and some "light blue"

Collins, Kilos, Soryus, Oyashios, Ladas are fleet conventionals designed to fight in the blue, and designed to take the fight to a nuke if need be. take to the fight is different from fight

general comment. a small note re my prev. when I talk about UDT its in the sub sense not in the clearance diver sense