In fact, IMOE the one thing that is common about submariners and specwarries is that they STFU about capability;)
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Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine in world??
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RE: Reload this Page Which is best non-AIP diesel submarine in world??
One thing to keep in mind when comparing SSK/AIP (SSI) are the ROE's of the exercise. The SSN normally is the one that has to enter the area while the SSI is already there. The typical situation is that the SSN enters the area at a high speed then slows down to patrol. Unfortunately, this gives the SSI the advantage of being able to know when and where the SSN is. Must the SSN always use its coolant pumps? That could be a condition of the ROE's.
Remember, the 688I's below (I think) 8kts can run without using coolant pumps so, it is very silent. The USS Seawolf and Virginia can run at 20kts without needing coolant pumps! Plus they ALL are trying to catch up the USS Ohio Class boomers in lower noise levels. Boomers are a class of sub that no country really talks about but, the importance of their mission means their countries are willing to spend all sorts of money to keep them "state of the art."
Also one thing to keep in mind when judging SSI's, what is the age of the designs?
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Originally posted by Chaobam Armour View PostHow about the upholder class, Type 2,400 (Thats its displacement).
In 1999 at the Defence Procurement Conf, the then Chief of Navy in front of 400+ delegates responded to a "cleared" journalist who asked the same question:
in short:
no - the boats were seen even then as more problematic than persevering with Collins. We considered the upholders as a second squadron, 1st as an interim while Collins was sorted, and then as a second squadron when Collins was cleared.
Much of the conf details are restricted, but we ended up with about 15 minutes of detail on known problems with the Class
Nice boats if they'd been attended to by their former owners, but they were handcuffed by a lack of commitment by UKGovt and a decision to save money by going to an all nuke fleet.
If you have a military address I'm happy to discuss some of it further if you PM me with it. I'll respond from mine for obvious reasons. But I'm on leave and won't be back on the job for another week. :)
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Originally posted by avon1944 View PostFgf0012-aust, for those of us who are not subscribers, what is the gist of the article please? -Adrian
basically it was an article by a USN exchange officer who had just done a 2 year rotation with RAN as an acoustic warfare officer, and a compressed history of how he did his Perisher training on Collins. There are over 12 USN sailors attached to the Sub squadron and all are doing diesel qualification at the acoustic warfare level. IIRC (not in the article) we have 6 fulltime serving USN staff on the boats, another 6 are doing desk jobs.
RAN Dolphins are apparently "keepsakes". :)
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Originally posted by Rodinga View PostThe Collins class according to an ASC financial report also have facilities for the insertion of special forces squads
also the subs have been upgraded with the AN/BYG-1 Combat Control System with mark 48 ADCAP Torpedos which are a match for US AIP subs
small issues here that are a bit incorrect.
The specwarries have always been catered for on RAN subs - even the Oberons. On the Collins they also have the untilised space that was allocated for the AIP (which was never purchased as the trial units didn't show any great advantage. AIP for Collins provided minimal benefit.) The AIP test engines are sitting in the shed.
They've always had Mk-48's, the CBASS is designed to kill subs in the littorals and was co-developed with the USN using the tech and datasets that both navies have gathered over time.
Lastly, the US only have nukes, they don't have conventionals, and thus zero chance for AIP subs. The only conventional they had that was struck off years ago was non AIP anyway.Last edited by gf0012-aust; 11 Jan 09,, 09:22.
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Originally posted by Baaper View PostSpecial on the Dutch ships are the X-rudders. Most countries have + rudders. X rudders are significantly more difficult to build, but better capable of dealing with damage. There are less rudders needed to maintain steering capability.
Originally posted by Baaper View PostDiving depths are not right btw. The real depths are usually classified.
The only data that is useful are the external empirical measurements. All combat related specs are vague enough to seem sensiible but don't reflect actual capability by any margin (and thats for all the subs)
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Originally posted by gunnut View PostCan these SSKs do the same type of job that the old ocean going subs like Gatos and U-boats did in WW2? For example spending weeks on patrol on the open ocean.
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Originally posted by Rodinga View PostA recent innovation by Australian Submarine Corporation in maintenance allows the diesel engine to undergo maintenance inside the Collins class submarine which is an improvement over having to cut the hull open to do so.
The difference in Collins was not that repairs could be done at sea (as all submarine diesels have that ability), it was that the build requirements selected an engine that was not expected and used in a complex military naval veessel. ASC had nothing to do with that process.Last edited by gf0012-aust; 11 Jan 09,, 09:32.
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Germany 214 I think.
but I think you should put China's "Yuan" sub to your list.Attached Files- 20080521_9f6b9c14ee507af690a7ia1D2gHKyvE4_jpg_thumb.jpg (0, 1107 views)
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Originally posted by Tomluter View Postbut I think you should put China's "Yuan" sub to your list.
again, AIP is important in context. It's not some panacea for conventionals that lifts them into a capability league automatically.
No offence, but photos are meaningless when looking at capability. Some of the critical elements never see a lens.Last edited by gf0012-aust; 11 Jan 09,, 21:13.
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Originally posted by gf0012-aust View PostWhy? A submarine without arrays is about as useful as a car without headlights driving at night in an unlit street.
again, AIP is important in context. It's not some panacea for conventionals that lifts them into a capability league automatically.
No offence, but photos are meaningless when looking at capability. Some of the critical elements never see a lens.
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