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Thread: reforms @ UNSC

  1. #61
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    IF India gets a UNSC seat we got to take an official stand on every issue irrelevant to us quite an unecessary thing,if you ask me

  2. #62
    Senior Contributor BenRoethig's Avatar
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    The issue with me about India getting a seat is that other nations will assume its because of them acquiring a nuclear arsenal.
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  3. #63
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    UN attacks rebels to protect civilians in Congo

    By MICHELLE FAUL
    updated 1 hour, 57 minutes ago

    GOMA, Congo - Furious mobs stoned U.N. peacekeepers' compounds Monday and thousands of desperate people fled advancing rebel troops as chaos returned to eastern Congo, fueled by festering hatreds left over from the Rwandan genocide and the country's unrelenting civil wars.

    In what appeared to be a major retreat, hundreds of government soldiers pulled back Monday from the battlefront north of the provincial capital of Goma — fleeing any way possible, including using tanks, jeeps and commandeered cars. Soldiers honked their horns angrily as they struggled to push through throngs of displaced people on the main road.

    Crowds of protesters threw rocks outside four U.N. compounds in Goma, venting outrage at what they claimed was a failure to protect them from rebels. Later in the day, peacekeepers in helicopter gunships attacked rebel forces surging on Kibumba, about 30 miles north of Goma, said U.N. spokeswoman Sylvie van den Wildenberg.

    The U.N. said the commander of the embattled Congo peacekeeping force resigned Monday after just a month. And Congo's president appointed a new Cabinet including a new defense minister and charged it with being "a combat government to re-establish peace."

    Renegade Gen. Laurent Nkunda has threatened to take Goma despite calls from the U.N. Security Council for him to respect a cease fire brokered by the U.N. in January. Nkunda charges that the Congolese government has not protected his minority Tutsi tribe from a Rwandan Hutu militia that escaped to Congo after helping perpetrate the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Half a million Tutsis were slaughtered.

    Rebel spokesman Bertrand Bisimwa told The Associated Press Monday that rebel fighters were within seven miles of Goma. Residents of Katindo, a neighborhood three miles from downtown Goma, told the AP they heard bombs exploding late Monday afternoon.

    Tens of thousands of civilians abandoned their homes ahead of the rebel advance. By nightfall, women and children lay down on roadsides made muddy by tropical downpours, stretching out to try to sleep. Some had mats or plastic sheets; others simply dropped, exhausted, to the earth.

    The civilians and soldiers were surging south from a major army base seized by the rebels on Sunday. As the crowds reached Goma, soldiers blocked access to the northern entrance, apparently fearing that rebels could be trying to infiltrate with the displaced civilians.

    The peacekeeper assault Monday was the second in a year against Nkunda's rebels. In December, U.N. officials also used attack helicopters to repel the rebels, killing hundreds under their mandate to protect civilians in the vast Central African country that has been ravaged by years of dictatorship and civil war.

    People in eastern Congo are furious that the U.N. peacekeeping mission — the biggest in the world with 17,000 troops — has been unable to protect them from the rebels. The United Nations said Friday that more than 200,000 people have fled their homes in eastern Congo in just the past two months, with 15,000 on Sunday. Tens of thousands fled Monday.

    Thousands of terrified and angry residents, including some from refugee camps, attacked all four U.N. compounds in Goma on Monday, lobbing rocks and stones over the wall.

    Van den Wildenberg said peacekeepers were forced to fire into the air outside a downtown U.N. compound. But a witness, Emmanuel Kihombo, said a U.N. soldier fired directly into the crowd and hit a man in the stomach.

    Van den Wildenberg said an organization of civil societies complained that a government trooper and a soldier from the elite presidential guard were killed when the peacekeepers fired.

    She said a student also reportedly died, but it was unclear whether the cause was stoning or a bullet.

    Kihombo said the protesters also hurled stones at some 20 Tutsi students, but that they all managed to run away.

    It was an indication of growing anti-Tutsi sentiment fueled by the success of Nkunda's rebels and long-simmering resentment over the wealth of Tutsis, many of them entrepreneurs.

    After meeting with U.N. officials, civil society leaders said they did not understand how U.N. soldiers sent to protect them could fire live bullets at people and kill three of them.

    "Today, we told the governor to tell the president and the prime minister that if the army and the U.N. peacekeepers do not succeed in mastering the situation and stoppi(AP) — ng the rebel advance, the people will descend into the streets to demand the government resign," said Jason Luneno, who led the group.

    U.N. officials said Nkunda's fighters on Sunday launched several rockets at two U.N. armored cars. A spokesman for Nkunda denied responsibility for the attack that injured several U.N. soldiers.

    The rebels also have seized the headquarters of Virunga National Park, home to 200 of the world's 700 mountain gorillas, which are considered critically endangered. Park director Emmanuel de Merode said the seizure was "unprecedented, even in all the years of conflict."

    The Congolese army, cobbled together of defeated army troops and several rebel and militia groups after back-to-back wars from 1997-2003, is disjointed, undisciplined, demoralized and poorly paid with lowest-ranking men getting little more than $20 a month.

    Nkunda is believed to command about 5,500 highly trained and disciplined fighters.

    Congo has been ravaged by years of dictatorship and civil war that have kept people from profiting from vast reserves of diamonds, gold and other resources. Congo held its first democratic elections in more than four decades in 2006. But the new government has struggled to assert its control of the sprawling country, which is the size of Western Europe, particularly in the east.
    OK, I just spotted another MSNBC's left leaning slant:

    This article, if taken from AP's feed, was titled "Thousands of protesters attacking UN in east Congo"

    MSNBC's title was changed to "UN attacks rebels to protect civilians in Congo"

    It sure sounds very different, hmmm...? AP, hardly a conservative organization, makes UN look weak and hapless. MSNBC, a left leaning propaganda machine, gives the reader the impression that UN is competent.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27180432/

    So...what would our new SC members like to do in this situation?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  4. #64
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    OK, I just spotted another MSNBC's left leaning slant:

    This article, if taken from AP's feed, was titled "Thousands of protesters attacking UN in east Congo"

    MSNBC's title was changed to "UN attacks rebels to protect civilians in Congo"
    The fisrt 3 paras of the article don't jibe with the revamped headline.
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  5. #65
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    The fisrt 3 paras of the article don't jibe with the revamped headline.
    Right. MSNBC somehow felt the need to change the title from UN being stoned to UN attacks rebels.

    The "feel" of the article is different when one reads it with "UN attacked by furious refugees" for not protecting them vs. "UN attacks rebels to protect" refugees.

    Same article, but different feel.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  6. #66
    Herodotus
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Right. MSNBC somehow felt the need to change the title from UN being stoned to UN attacks rebels.

    The "feel" of the article is different when one reads it with "UN attacked by furious refugees" for not protecting them vs. "UN attacks rebels to protect" refugees.

    Same article, but different feel.
    Gunnut this is the article I pulled up on MSNBC, the first three paragraphs:


    updated 4:14 p.m. ET, Mon., Oct. 27, 2008
    GOMA, Congo - In a chaotic day of fighting and fear, U.N. peacekeepers used helicopter gunships against rebels in eastern Congo on Monday, trying to halt a rebel advance as government troops hastily retreated and civilians attacked U.N. headquarters demanding protection.

    U.N. spokeswoman Sylvie van den Wildenberg said the peacekeepers in helicopters fired at rebel forces surging on Kibumba, about 28 miles (45 kilometers) north of the provincial capital of Goma.

    Rebel leader Gen. Laurent Nkunda has threatened to take Goma in defiance of calls from the U.N. Security Council for him to respect a U.N.-brokered cease-fire signed in January.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27403257/


    Pretty clearly the article first talks about UN peacekeepers fighting the rebels. Later in the article it talks about protesters attacking the UN compound, in a related/unrelated story. But from the begining the story seems consistent with the headline.

  7. #67
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herodotus View Post
    Gunnut this is the article I pulled up on MSNBC, the first three paragraphs:




    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27403257/


    Pretty clearly the article first talks about UN peacekeepers fighting the rebels. Later in the article it talks about protesters attacking the UN compound, in a related/unrelated story. But from the begining the story seems consistent with the headline.
    If you click on the link in my previous post, you would see this:
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  8. #68
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    I take back what I've said about MSNBC's bias for UN. The title of the wire feed was not changed when the article was updated, resulting in confusion.

    Now we get that out of the way, what will UN do to help these people?

    More importantly, what will the aspiring UNSC reformers and hopefuls do?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  9. #69
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    So...how's that UN peace keeping mission doing in Congo?

    Don't wait for the US to send troops and equipment, the new aspiring SC members should take a more active leadership role and send fully capable combat units into the region. Come on, how hard is it to support a few battalions of infantry units half way around the world in the middle of Africa?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  10. #70
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    UN action in Congo? Any one? Any one?

    All you internationalists talk a good game but when the chips are down no one wants the responsibility.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    So...how's that UN peace keeping mission doing in Congo?

    Don't wait for the US to send troops and equipment, the new aspiring SC members should take a more active leadership role and send fully capable combat units into the region. Come on, how hard is it to support a few battalions of infantry units half way around the world in the middle of Africa?
    err.... India has combat troops/helicopters in Congo as part of the UN peacekeeping force. Thats umm 3500 odd troops. Does anyone in the G5 have anybody there except for MOs?

    They operate under the often too restrictive ROEs that get hammered out by the UNSC. What leadership exists in the UNSC for anyone to aspire too?
    Last edited by chankya; 06 Nov 08, at 01:59.
    "Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

  12. #72
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chankya View Post
    err.... India has combat troops/helicopters in Congo as part of the UN peacekeeping force. Thats umm 3500 odd troops. Does anyone in the G5 have anybody there except for MOs?

    They operate under the often too restrictive ROEs that get hammered out by the UNSC. What leadership exists in the UNSC for anyone to aspire too?
    Actually the ROE is pretty relaxed in this operation. The force contingent is too spread out. Logistics are difficult. Plus even with a relaxed ROE, it still might be defensive in nature. There is no mandate to fight a war. Only to defend.

    My point is that the world body doesn't work because no one wants to take the bull by the horn and be the bad guy. There is no reward for controlling a basket case of a nation (or territory).
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  13. #73
    Senior Contributor xrough's Avatar
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    I would recommend that G8 countries, SC permanent member countries plus those countries having huge military forces to contribute more to ensure success in this mission, that if they really true to their words not just to show they have made contribution by just sending 100 or 1000 troops. I think they could more.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by payeng View Post
    India plays a prominent role in war against terrorist, such initiatives should be a plus point for India for a claim in UNSC.
    The trick is not how much you can CONTRIBUTE to the world peace but how much you can UNDERMINE world peace

    For example, if you can demonstrate that: "if you cross my core interests, then you will get a bloody nose" to the 5 major powers, they will welcoming you to the club with veto power

    Or better, if you can demonstrate : If I don t have a SAY in UNSC, I will simply quit and found a mini XN consisted with my client states. Then they will probably carry you to your permanent seat

    The rational is easy to understand

    If you have a small GUN and big SAY ,you will persuade people to give what you want

    While If you have a BIG GUN but a small SAY, you would simply rob it over

    Therefore the 5 major powers agree with each other to give major nations a volume of SAY roughly equal to their FIRE POWER ,So one can have a choice between TALK and FIRE

    The veto is to ensure the core interests of major power are not to be crossed, otherwise they may be forced to resist the UNSC vote and protect their core interests by unpeaceful appoach(like korea war)

    If you understand that, you can see why india now donot have a veto power.
    Last edited by ever4244; 06 Nov 08, at 17:54.

  15. #75
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrough View Post
    I would recommend that G8 countries, SC permanent member countries plus those countries having huge military forces to contribute more to ensure success in this mission, that if they really true to their words not just to show they have made contribution by just sending 100 or 1000 troops. I think they could more.
    Very nice in theory. The bottom line is still "what's in it for me?"

    That's why a "world government" for those idealist Euro socialist hippies won't work. No one will do anything for free. There has to be a payoff. Then again I don't expect socialists to understand that concept.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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