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Thread: Effectiveness of Body Armor

  1. #31
    Contributor ace16807's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    Kevin,
    That myth got debunked last year. Dragon Skin falls apart in the heat and fails.
    Didn't the adhesive for the disks decompose whenever exposed to extreme conditions period? I thought it didn't hold up when exposed to extreme cold either.

  2. #32
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    Wow, I have learned, I didn't know that. The last I heard they supposedly tested it and actually didn't.

  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    I don't recall reading about extreme cold but disintergration in high temperature typical in desert climates is confirmed and that is very bad. It was also not as effective in sheer protective power as what the US Army already had at the time. So Dragon Skin failed wow anyone.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  4. #34
    New Member CrusDiv 7's Avatar
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    From my point of view, you got to balance the need for body armor vs. the need for speed/mobility. I´d say that it should be worn/not worn regarding the actual mission.

    The increased weight added to the soldier will also demand more water to drink.
    = more weight wich will decrease the soldiers range/capability.

    I cant confirm the source, But someone told me that bodyarmor is good against lowspeed shrapnel but increases the damage don by a bullet that penetrates the bodyarmor. Maybe some here can confirm/deny this?

  5. #35
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    On the Dragon skin story from Wiki.........

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor


    In a test for the History Channel's military show, "Mail Call", the vest repelled nine rounds of steel-core ammunition from a WASR-10 (7.62×39 mm) and 35 rounds of 9 mm, all fired into a 10-by-12-inch area on the vest. In "Test Lab", also on the History Channel, the vest withstood 120 rounds fired from an AK-47 and MP5 (9 x 19 mm). In another demonstration on the Discovery Channel series "Future Weapons", a Dragon Skin vest withstood numerous rounds (including steel cored armor-piercing rounds) from an AK-47, an MP5SD, an M-16A4 assault rifle (5.56x45 mm), and a point-blank detonation of an M67 grenade. While the vest was heavily damaged (mainly by the grenade), there was no penetration of the armor. All of the rounds mentioned however, are less powerful than the 7.62x51mm NATO round that a vest is required to defeat in order to meet the Level III NIJ standard.


    I saw the ''future weapons'' demo, and apart from the point blank ammo test, they tested the vest against a grenade blast, again no penetration.

    Too bad it's a dud, the tests looked impressive.


    This is from the company....



    At Pinnacle Armor, our Mission is to save lives. We are committed to providing products and services that are unequalled in threat protection, designed and manufactured to perform in life or death situations. Our products consistently establish new benchmarks for protection product certification, and our advanced materials know-how cost-effectively solves our client's immediate and long-term protection needs.

    Our SOV Dragon Skin® technology is no exception. In fact, the technology behind the Dragon Skin is setting unprecedented performance capabilities, while saving the lives of the many men and women who put their lives in harms way every single day to protect us domestically and abroad.

    Our trademark "Protecting The Lives Of Those Who Protect US"® speaks for the time and effort that has gone into the design, fabrication and optimization of a system that is truly designed to provide survivability to the wearer. The incredible saves that this armor system provides, speaks to the testament of the systems capabilities. Substantial multiple repeat hit capability, little to no bruising at all from impacts, close proximity shots, close edge shots, and having the coverage necessary to defeat the threats.

    This section of our web site is dedicated to those men and women who put their lives in harms way every single day to protect us. Those men and women deserve literally the best body armor that technology has to offer. They are often provided with far less. Fortunately, many of the men and women wearing the Dragon Skin® body armor have not been shot. Those who have are listed below with their consent. Those who for deployment and/or operational status wish to remain anonymous, they are listed in the numbers, with limited information.

    Pinnacle Armor wishes each and every one of them the best and may God speed them home safely. We feel proud to have been of service to you.

    Name: Rod Huckabay
    Incident type: IED Ambush - Vehicular
    Location: Najaf, Iraq
    Employment: Eagle Team; PSD DynCorp International, Iraq
    Details: Survived IED explosion with substantial fragmentation impacts to the upper chest region (within 3/4" from top of armor, full width of the armor) without failure or bruising.

    Name: Jaco S. Botes
    Incident type: IED Ambush - Vehicular
    Location:Iraq
    Employment: Team Black Cobra; PSD DynCorp International, Iraq
    Details: Survived three impacts from 7.62x39mm API. Two rounds in lower back one inch apart and one in the upper portion of back. Did not even bruise from impacts sustained in body armor.


    Name: N/A
    Incident type: Patrol Ambush, U.S. Special Operations
    Incident: Afghanistan
    Employment: U.S. Military
    Details: Survived seven impacts from 7.62x54R LPS. All seven rounds contained in approximately 5" impact location within upper front torso.


    Name: N/A
    Incident type: Sniper encounter
    Location: Iraq
    Employment: Reconstruction Contractor
    Details: Survived five impacts from 7.62x39 mild steel core. All five rounds impacted the front, sides and rear of the vest while descending from power pole repair work. Did not even bruise from impacts sustained in body armor.

  6. #36
    Contributor ace16807's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANZAC View Post
    On the Dragon skin story from Wiki.........

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor


    In a test for the History Channel's military show, "Mail Call", the vest repelled nine rounds of steel-core ammunition from a WASR-10 (7.62×39 mm) and 35 rounds of 9 mm, all fired into a 10-by-12-inch area on the vest. In "Test Lab", also on the History Channel, the vest withstood 120 rounds fired from an AK-47 and MP5 (9 x 19 mm). In another demonstration on the Discovery Channel series "Future Weapons", a Dragon Skin vest withstood numerous rounds (including steel cored armor-piercing rounds) from an AK-47, an MP5SD, an M-16A4 assault rifle (5.56x45 mm), and a point-blank detonation of an M67 grenade. While the vest was heavily damaged (mainly by the grenade), there was no penetration of the armor. All of the rounds mentioned however, are less powerful than the 7.62x51mm NATO round that a vest is required to defeat in order to meet the Level III NIJ standard.


    I saw the ''future weapons'' demo, and apart from the point blank ammo test, they tested the vest against a grenade blast, again no penetration.

    Too bad it's a dud, the tests looked impressive.


    This is from the company....



    At Pinnacle Armor, our Mission is to save lives. We are committed to providing products and services that are unequalled in threat protection, designed and manufactured to perform in life or death situations. Our products consistently establish new benchmarks for protection product certification, and our advanced materials know-how cost-effectively solves our client's immediate and long-term protection needs.

    Our SOV Dragon Skin® technology is no exception. In fact, the technology behind the Dragon Skin is setting unprecedented performance capabilities, while saving the lives of the many men and women who put their lives in harms way every single day to protect us domestically and abroad.

    Our trademark "Protecting The Lives Of Those Who Protect US"® speaks for the time and effort that has gone into the design, fabrication and optimization of a system that is truly designed to provide survivability to the wearer. The incredible saves that this armor system provides, speaks to the testament of the systems capabilities. Substantial multiple repeat hit capability, little to no bruising at all from impacts, close proximity shots, close edge shots, and having the coverage necessary to defeat the threats.

    This section of our web site is dedicated to those men and women who put their lives in harms way every single day to protect us. Those men and women deserve literally the best body armor that technology has to offer. They are often provided with far less. Fortunately, many of the men and women wearing the Dragon Skin® body armor have not been shot. Those who have are listed below with their consent. Those who for deployment and/or operational status wish to remain anonymous, they are listed in the numbers, with limited information.

    Pinnacle Armor wishes each and every one of them the best and may God speed them home safely. We feel proud to have been of service to you.

    Name: Rod Huckabay
    Incident type: IED Ambush - Vehicular
    Location: Najaf, Iraq
    Employment: Eagle Team; PSD DynCorp International, Iraq
    Details: Survived IED explosion with substantial fragmentation impacts to the upper chest region (within 3/4" from top of armor, full width of the armor) without failure or bruising.

    Name: Jaco S. Botes
    Incident type: IED Ambush - Vehicular
    Location:Iraq
    Employment: Team Black Cobra; PSD DynCorp International, Iraq
    Details: Survived three impacts from 7.62x39mm API. Two rounds in lower back one inch apart and one in the upper portion of back. Did not even bruise from impacts sustained in body armor.


    Name: N/A
    Incident type: Patrol Ambush, U.S. Special Operations
    Incident: Afghanistan
    Employment: U.S. Military
    Details: Survived seven impacts from 7.62x54R LPS. All seven rounds contained in approximately 5" impact location within upper front torso.


    Name: N/A
    Incident type: Sniper encounter
    Location: Iraq
    Employment: Reconstruction Contractor
    Details: Survived five impacts from 7.62x39 mild steel core. All five rounds impacted the front, sides and rear of the vest while descending from power pole repair work. Did not even bruise from impacts sustained in body armor.
    It doesn't matter if it can repel rounds like that. If the whole thing falls apart, and all the ceramic disks just come off before the soldier even gets it, it doesn't do him any good.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ace16807 View Post
    It doesn't matter if it can repel rounds like that. If the whole thing falls apart, and all the ceramic disks just come off before the soldier even gets it, it doesn't do him any good.
    That's why I said too bad it's a dud, 'if' they could overcome the thing falling apart, they may have a winner, by all accounts it's saved lives of Special forces and others in Iraq and Afghanistan already.

  8. #38
    Muganga Military Professional JOgershok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inst View Post
    By the way, do we have information on the body armor being fielded by various countries?

    Armor is never as interesting to the amateur as weapons, but if modern body armor can resist multiple hits from common assault rifle rounds, then body armor is a truly war-changing technology.

    I think there's documentation on US interceptor armor, on the Dragon-skin scale armor that caused a scandal in the US media, but what about other countries? What does the UK use? How effective is UK armor when compared to other armor types?

    What about armor-piercing rounds? The Chinese switched their standard ammunition to armor-piercing because of the prevalence of body armor among Western militaries, how effective is the 5.8mm round versus standard body armor? What about the Russian AP rounds?
    The Iraqis are using US manufactured body armor (Point BlanK.) AP rounds (7.62X54R) are available for the SVD and have been used by snipers. They are very effective up to 250 yards. I have seen them pierce armor plates for HMMTT's but have no experience with vests.
    Last edited by JOgershok; 04 Jan 09, at 02:29.

  9. #39
    Military Professional tuflehundon's Avatar
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    I was hit with an AK several times in the vest. It can break rib and cause severe soft tissue damage, but hey I'm alive and was able to get back in the game. I have seen guys get hit in the plate with a 7.62 from around 100m and survive just fine, a little sore but fine. I believe there was a video of an Army medic getting hit in the plate by an Iraqi sniper. He was able to get up, fire back and track the guys down. He even gave them medical attention once his buddies shot them.

    I would like to see a version of the Dragon Scale Armour with better coverage for the arms and neck.

  10. #40
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    Osprey is a good piece of kit, a tad heavy mind. It has neck protection and side protection too, all of which is removeable.

  11. #41
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    Gunny, oh Gunny!!!
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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