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Thread: UK considers JSF pullout

  1. #61
    Contributor VarSity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Not the Super Hornet. It's actually a brand new plane that looks like the A-D model. Full 4.5 gen and on the same level as the Eurofighter and Rafale.
    But doesn't it lack growth potential?

  2. #62
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarSity View Post
    But doesn't it lack growth potential?
    No, the Hornet lacked growth potential. Thats one of the reasons for the Rhino. Built with an estimated 20yrs worth of growth potential.

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    About the JSF... Israel wants it, so it can't be that bad...
    Israel Plans to Buy F-35s

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    About the JSF... Israel wants it, so it can't be that bad...
    Israel Plans to Buy F-35s
    Or they could be waiting for it to fall flat on its face, so they can then bang on about how much more they NEED the F-22.

  5. #65
    Military Professional jeffpayne56's Avatar
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    get out of it asap its a big white elephant, either a sea version of the typhoon or lets buy French a lot cheaper proven a much bigger payload and all the support we want and need
    Can the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights
    cheers Jeff

  6. #66
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffpayne56 View Post
    get out of it asap its a big white elephant, either a sea version of the typhoon or lets buy French a lot cheaper proven a much bigger payload and all the support we want and need
    If you buy the Rafael, will the cost of the planes, new pilot training sylabus, retraining of existing pilots and modifications to your carrier, be less than the F-35B?
    Last edited by Gun Grape; 04 Oct 08, at 00:43.

  7. #67
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    Lets be clear we have very very very few carrier pilots at the moment anyway so we will have to do a lot of re training. The French planes are a god alternative for the UK and purchasing them would do a lot for the anglo french relationship.

    To be honest I still wish we had the F-35C
    Naval Warfare Discussion is dying on WAB

  8. #68
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Lets be clear we have very very very few carrier pilots at the moment anyway so we will have to do a lot of re training. The French planes are a god alternative for the UK and purchasing them would do a lot for the anglo french relationship.

    To be honest I still wish we had the F-35C
    About 3 squadrons of Harriers. No idea of the actual number of pilots. But that is 3 squadrons that are capable of STOVL carrier operations. Compare that to the 0 pilots that are trained to do Conventional carrier landings.

    In addition to the flight deck crews that are also untrained in conventional carrier operations.

    If its all about Anglo-French relations, fine but if its about "Cost overruns" and high price of the 35B then I think its a short sighted move. One based without all the additional cost figured into the equation.

  9. #69
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Lets be clear we have very very very few carrier pilots at the moment anyway so we will have to do a lot of re training. The French planes are a god alternative for the UK and purchasing them would do a lot for the anglo french relationship.

    To be honest I still wish we had the F-35C
    Look at it this way, if you buy F-35B, there's still a chance to buy F-35C if the need arises. If you buy the Rafale, there's probably zero chance to buy F-35C or even F-35B.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    If you by the Rafael, will the cost of the planes, new pilot training sylabus, retraining of existing pilots and modifications to your carrier, be less than the F-35B?
    Possibly, yes.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Hunter View Post
    Possibly, yes.
    As my grandfather used to say, "You'll go broke saving money like that."

    If Lockmart holds good on their promises, the F-35B will come in at ~$60 Mil unit cost. The Rafale M is $67 Mil (2006 dollars).

    I seriously doubt France will export SPECTRA.

    Rafale is an orphan, and a 4.5 gen AC.

    BAE would lose offsets on ~2000 F-35 frames. BAE's share is about 1/3 of the total manufacturing of the JSF program (excluding engines).
    Last edited by highsea; 03 Oct 08, at 21:11.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea View Post
    If Lockmart holds good on their promises, the F-35B will come in at ~$60 Mil unit cost. The Rafale M is $67 Mil (2006 dollars).
    That's an Arleigh Burke-class sized "if".

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea View Post
    If Lockmart holds good on their promises, the F-35B will come in at ~$60 Mil unit cost.
    Oh come on highsea.

    The USAF FY2009 budget documentation gives a flyaway cost of $83M per unit for the total program (1,763 units), whereas the US Navy FY2009 budget documentation gives a flyaway cost of $115M per unit for the total program (680 units).

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    About 3 squadrons of Harriers. No idea of the actual number of pilots. But that is 3 squadrons that are capable of STOVL carrier operations. Compare that to the 0 pilots that are trained to do Conventional carrier landings.
    Just remembered something else: those 3 squadrons-worth of pilots are constantly filling slots in the RAF and RN, thanks to the fact that both services use the Harrier. If the F-35 is dumped, the Rafale will be navy-only. Since the RN will then get the pilots (for the Rafales) the RAF will then be short not only on planes but also on pilots...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Oh come on highsea.

    The USAF FY2009 budget documentation gives a flyaway cost of $83M per unit for the total program (1,763 units), whereas the US Navy FY2009 budget documentation gives a flyaway cost of $115M per unit for the total program (680 units).
    Program costs are different than unit costs. The manufacturer can sell for whatever price they want to. All they have to recover is the incremental cost.

    Estimates of program costs when the AC isn't even to IOC will not be accurate, and budgetary costs for FY09 include such things as dev costs for F-136, as I already stated in some other thread.

    Point being, EVERY foreign sale is different, and is dominated by offsets. Picking a number from ANY source will not be accurate, and the unit cost per frame will only be 40-50 percent of the contract price to the end user depending on maintenance agreements, spares, simulators, training, etc.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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